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Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Printable Version

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - James02 - 10-20-2012

In France, if you define a Catholic as someone who goes to Mass every Sunday, the attendance is 5%.  In fact, using that definition of Catholic the SSPX already outnumbers the NO in France.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Scriptorium - 10-21-2012

(10-20-2012, 08:05 PM)TrentCath Wrote: What are you talking about? Have you even read what the pope has written? I fail to see why we should take joy in heretics converting others to heresy or why we should compare their efforts to missionaries converting people to the one true church of Jesus Christ. Frankly I am not even seeing what your reply has to do with what the pope has said or what I have said it just seems like a random collection of words with no rhyme or reason.

You seem fixated on this missionary thing. The Pope said take joy when a non-Catholic "does something good in Christ’s name, as long as he does it with the right intention and with respect." If its good, we rejoice. If it is evil, we don't. If one intends to draw someone from the Church, then that would not be the "right intention". But if someone is ministering in Christ's name to the homeless, for instance, without intending to draw people from Catholicism, that is praiseworthy and we should rejoice in that good.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-21-2012

"For this reason the members of the Church must not be jealous but rejoice if someone outside the community does something good in Christ’s name, as long as he does it with the right intention and with respect.  It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups" (Pope Benedict XVI, 30 September 2012).

I think it's obvious to all that people can do good works without grace, and also that actual grace exists outside the Church.  But let's not fool ourselves: non-Catholics lead people to accept a false form of Christianity, which is better than paganism or atheism, but unless their new converts unite themselves to Christ's Church before death, they will surely share in the same fate as the aforementioned pagans and atheists.

"Whoever does not gather with this Church scatters" (Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus, n. 11).

"For, in effect, he scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God" (Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae, n. 17).

Bottom line:  Yes, non-Catholics can and do many good works, but unless they finally board the Ark of St. Peter, it will all be in vain.  When was the last time the Holy Father stated this grave truth?


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 10:03 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-20-2012, 08:05 PM)TrentCath Wrote: What are you talking about? Have you even read what the pope has written? I fail to see why we should take joy in heretics converting others to heresy or why we should compare their efforts to missionaries converting people to the one true church of Jesus Christ. Frankly I am not even seeing what your reply has to do with what the pope has said or what I have said it just seems like a random collection of words with no rhyme or reason.

You seem fixated on this missionary thing. The Pope said take joy when a non-Catholic "does something good in Christ’s name, as long as he does it with the right intention and with respect." If its good, we rejoice. If it is evil, we don't. If one intends to draw someone from the Church, then that would not be the "right intention". But if someone is ministering in Christ's name to the homeless, for instance, without intending to draw people from Catholicism, that is praiseworthy and we should rejoice in that good.

Read my original post, I was quite clear that the context is linked to the problem, the context of magnifying heretics and deprecating the Church.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - TrentCath - 10-21-2012

(10-01-2012, 10:21 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: Midday Angelus, Sept 30,  Castel Gandolfo.

Dear brothers and sisters!

The Gospel of this Sunday presents one of those episodes of the life of Christ that, although, reported “in passing,” so to speak, contain a profound meaning (cf. Mark 9:38-41). It tells that someone, who was not one of Jesus’ followers, cast out demons in Jesus’ name. The Apostle John, young and zealous as he was, wanted to stop him but Jesus did not permit it; on the contrary, he takes the occasion to teach his disciples that God can do good and even wondrous things outside of their circle, and that it is possible to work together in the cause of the Kingdom of God in different ways, even offering a simple glass of water to a missionary (9:41).

St. Augustine writes in this regard: “Just as in the ‘Catholica,'” that is in the Church, “we can find that which is not Catholic, so also outside of the ‘Catholica’ there can be something Catholic” (“On Baptism Against the Donatists,” PL 43, VII, 39, 77). For this reason the members of the Church must not be jealous but rejoice if someone outside the community does something good in Christ’s name, as long as he does it with the right intention and with respect. It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups. We must all, however, be always able to appreciate and esteem each other, praising the Lord for the infinite “imagination” with which he works in the Church and in the world.

In today’s liturgy there also echoes the Apostle James’ invective against the dishonest rich, who place their trust in the security of wealth gained unjustly (cf. James 5:1-6). In this connection Caesarius of Arles states: “While riches cannot harm a good man because they make him merciful, they cannot help a bad man inasmuch as he holds on to them greedily or wastes them in dissipation” (Sermons 35, 4). The Apostle James’ words, while they warn against the vain pursuit of material goods, constitute a powerful call to use them with a view to solidarity and the common good, acting always with equity and morality at all levels.

Dear friends, through the intercession of Mary Most Holy, let us pray that we might know how to rejoice in every good deed and initiative, without envy and jealousy, and to use earthly goods wisely in the continuous pursuit of eternal goods.

Source: http://www.zenit.org/article-35628?l=english

If we actually look at the popes words, which is why I quoted your original post, we can see that your justifications have little to do with what he actually said. His words are pregnant with indifferentism, there are good things that happen in the church, there are good things that happen outside the Church, he of course makes no distinction, we should praise and esteem them and not ignore the good things done by them due to the profound communion with them etc... There is even an implication that actually this division is the will of God and that somehow the many heretics being outside the Church reflects God using many different tools.

If you can't see how that's problematic, you are simply being wilfully blind. It approaches some of what John Paul II says when it comes to problematic statements.


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-01-2012, 11:12 PM)Gerard Wrote: So, what is someone supposed to glean from the Holy Father's message? 

I've never had any sense of envy or jealousy concerning Protestantism or other non-Catholics.  Even as a Novus  Ordo raised Catholic, I never felt that a rousing sermon of dubious orthodoxy was worth not being in Christ's Church.  (snip)

I believe the Holy Father is speaking of spiritual jealousy, not "jealousy" in the sense of sentiments such as, "I'm jealous that Protestants don't have to kneel and cross themselves all the time." My impression is that he's speaking of the same sort of phenomenon I've witnessed wherein someone thinks it "unfair" that, for ex., someone who's led a sinful life can make an Act of Contrition on his deathbed and make it to Heaven alongside someone who's led a holy life. See the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard:  http://www.fisheaters.com/parables11.html  The spiritually jealous focuses on what they think is "fair" and what they, at least by their actions, seem to think God "owes" them as opposed to others, as if God owes us anything at all, as if we have the right to assume His role as Judge, as if we could warrant Heaven by our own deservedness instead of Christ's grace alone.

I think in this particular case, he was talking about some of the good fruits Protestants bear and how some Catholics would begrudge them that or deny that they can possibly have any natural virtue or any actual grace because "they" are not "us" who have God wrapped up in a box because we are members of the Body of His Church (forgetting or denying that some who are not a part of Her Body may be a part of Her Soul). I see that sort of thinking quite a lot. It's nasty.




Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 02:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:   If we actually look at the popes words, which is why I quoted your original post, we can see that your justifications have little to do with what he actually said. His words are pregnant with indifferentism, there are good things that happen in the church, there are good things that happen outside the Church, he of course makes no distinction, we should praise and esteem them and not ignore the good things done by them due to the profound communion with them etc... There is even an implication that actually this division is the will of God and that somehow the many heretics being outside the Church reflects God using many different tools.

If you can't see how that's problematic, you are simply being wilfully blind. It approaches some of what John Paul II says when it comes to problematic statements. 

There is nothing problematic in the Holy Father's words. Everything he said is so. I don't know why the idea exists that if there are 3 things that are true -- X, Y, and Z -- the Pope is "religiously indifferent" unless he mentions all three. If X is "Actual grace exists outside of the Church" and Y is "Natural virtues are evident in many who are not formal members of the Church" and Z is "Protestants are wrong in not submitting to papal authority, some folks would call the Pope all sorts of names if he just mentions the first two on any given day.  I think some people expect the Pope to wake up every morning, go to his balcony, and yell out "Protestants are material heretics! Just so's y'all know!"  If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above.



Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - Mithrandylan - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 02:51 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 02:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:   If we actually look at the popes words, which is why I quoted your original post, we can see that your justifications have little to do with what he actually said. His words are pregnant with indifferentism, there are good things that happen in the church, there are good things that happen outside the Church, he of course makes no distinction, we should praise and esteem them and not ignore the good things done by them due to the profound communion with them etc... There is even an implication that actually this division is the will of God and that somehow the many heretics being outside the Church reflects God using many different tools.

If you can't see how that's problematic, you are simply being wilfully blind. It approaches some of what John Paul II says when it comes to problematic statements. 

There is nothing problematic in the Holy Father's words. Everything he said is so. I don't know why the idea exists that if there are 3 things that are true -- X, Y, and Z -- the Pope is "religiously indifferent" unless he mentions all three. If X is "Actual grace exists outside of the Church" and Y is "Natural virtues are evident in many who are not formal members of the Church" and Z is "Protestants are wrong in not submitting to papal authority, some folks would call the Pope all sorts of names if he just mentions the first two on any given day.  I think some people expect the Pope to wake up every morning, go to his balcony, and yell out "Protestants are material heretics! Just so's y'all know!"  If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above.

Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Pope who meets with Lutheran leaders to talk about how great Luther's faith was and invites worship of false gods and atheism into God's house and positively provides concessions to allow for it writes about the virtues  found outside of Catholicism?  The words themselves probably <i>are</i> alright because they are true in a certain sense, but at the end of the day when you string it together with everything else, it's just more of the same modernism. 


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - SouthpawLink - 10-21-2012

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but when was the last time -- if ever -- the Holy Father preached Z?  If all he ever does is preach about X and Y (e.g., Luther was "a great witness of the faith" and "a true believer"), then what impression are most people, including non-theologically-inclined Catholics, going to come away with?  When will it be convenient enough for him to preach Z?

"A basic unity – of churches that remain Churches, yet become one Church – must replace the idea of conversion, even though conversion retains its meaningfulness for those in conscience motivated to seek it" (Fr. Ratzinger, Theological Highlights of Vatican II, p. 73; my emphasis added).

http://www.cfnews.org/V2-unity.htm


Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - VoxClamantis - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 03:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe if you disconnect this passage from everything else he's done as a pontiff.

Pope who meets with Lutheran leaders to talk about how great Luther's faith was and invites worship of false gods and atheism into God's house and positively provides concessions to allow for it writes about the virtues  found outside of Catholicism?  The words themselves probably <i>are</i> alright because they are true in a certain sense, but at the end of the day when you string it together with everything else, it's just more of the same modernism. 

SouthpawLink Wrote:Forgive me for belaboring the point, but when was the last time -- if ever -- the Holy Father preached Z?  If all he ever does is preach about X and Y (e.g., Luther was "a great witness of the faith" and "a true believer"), then what impression are most people, including non-theologically-inclined Catholics, going to come away with?  When will it be convenient enough for him to preach Z?


Did you guys see the last line of my post?:  "If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above."

It's one thing to think the Holy Father doesn't preach enough about God's desire for Christian unity (under the supreme pontiff, of course) and for all men to belong to the Church -- and it's another to claim to find heresy or indifferentism or whatever in perfectly kosher text. It's not right or cool (in fact, it's sinful) and makes trads look like people who like to whine for the sake of whining, who go looking for trouble, hoping to find it -- and claiming to find it where it isn't. There's a reason why that stereotype of trads exists. Trads, like everyone, should fight fair and be honest, and they certainly shouldn't be coming off as just waiiiiiiiting for the Holy Father to "scandalize" us (even though no trad is really "scandalized" by the things pointed out. They might not like it or approve of it, but that isn't what "scandal" means).

I dunno... That sort of thing bugs me. In the first place, it isn't logical. In the second, it doesn't win hearts and minds to come off as bitter to the point of being willing to exaggerate faults and even make things up to sigh over. And because of the logic problem, it doesn't serve to educate anyone about anything. Anyone can read the Holy Father's words above, reflect on Catholic teaching, and know there's nothing wrong with what was said, so indicating otherwise makes trads look really bad. Maybe even stupid. It's unfortunate that this sort of thinking happens a lot.