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Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - Scriptorium - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 06:52 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: The only change I want in my perception of reality is that it correspond more perfectly with reality. 

It's a two way street. God doesn't require everything to accord with external reality. Our inner life can be formed purposefully. We needn't be passive. Think of the case of pain relief. Why are we allowed to relieve pain?


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - DrBombay - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:09 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-31-2012, 06:52 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: The only change I want in my perception of reality is that it correspond more perfectly with reality. 

It's a two way street. God doesn't require everything to accord with external reality. Our inner life can be formed purposefully. We needn't be passive. Think of the case of pain relief. Why are we allowed to relieve pain?

Because it hurts.


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - per_passionem_eius - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:07 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-31-2012, 06:51 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: It sounds like you're saying cocaine and alcohol are both allowed, it's only a matter of using them in moderation. 

Another serious question: how does one know when their reason is impaired, or when they're doing harm to themselves or others?  I confessed once to gluttony because I had eaten more than I needed to, and the priest said I wasn't committing gluttony unless my overeating was effecting my health.  That still sounds too liberal for me.  It sounds like as long as I fast between gorgings, which would indeed prevent a lot of health problems, I'm not being a glutton.  See what I mean?

I am saying that outside an elevated status given to wine in the Scripture, all drugs are equal in being judged by comprehensive moral principles. We shouldn't judge them because our society has applauded or frowned on them of late, but because they have true benefits or problems associated with their use.

How does one know when their reason is impaired, or when they're doing harm to themselves or others?

Good question. I think this is hard to answer with a black and white answer because intoxication is gradual. I measure loss of reason with an impairment in the ability to judge appropriate morals situations and make moral judgements. A state in which the inhibitions have been lowered to allow sin to be committed. And if one knows this limit, or the a breech of the limit is inherent in the use, then that is a sin itself. And we have the factor of experience. How do you know until you do it? I know I have a high tolerance, and can function quite well high as a kite. Others are more impaired. Other people have mental issues. Etc.

As for harm, we can study things like the documentary and weigh the health consequences. Also we factors in money, law, our ability to carry out duties, personal life, etc.


I confessed once to gluttony because I had eaten more than I needed to, and the priest said I wasn't committing gluttony unless my overeating was effecting my health.  That still sounds too liberal for me.  It sounds like as long as I fast between gorgings, which would indeed prevent a lot of health problems, I'm not being a glutton. See what I mean?

In my mind these kinds of sins are taking an inordinate pleasure (a lust) in creation to the neglect of the Creator and His order. Make an analogy with something that relates to you. How about clothing. There is immodesty. There is overdoing it, and being too extravagant and costly. There is wearing it to lead other to sins. Etc.

I admit, these questions are not easy.

Thanks.  I'll watch that documentary tonight.  I know myself quite well, and I suspect I'm not so much worse than others, but I also know I can project.  I clearly remember one incident when a substance I was using, in a very small amount, something legal, was absolutely wreaking havoc on my soul.  It's so clear in my memory.  I find it hard to believe that these things are so uncommon, but maybe they really are.  I sincerely apologize to anyone I've offended by my assuming that these are common occurrences.  I really thought they were!


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - per_passionem_eius - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:09 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-31-2012, 06:52 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: The only change I want in my perception of reality is that it correspond more perfectly with reality. 

It's a two way street. God doesn't require everything to accord with external reality. Our inner life can be formed purposefully. We needn't be passive. Think of the case of pain relief. Why are we allowed to relieve pain?

So we can work, or take care of our families, or concentrate better, or be more charitable to people, etc., I guess.  I know it's ok to relieve pain.


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - Doce Me - 10-31-2012

Mariuana is serious stuff, way too dangerous for me to ever want to play with (except for controlled medical use).

Maybe you don't believe the following info because it comes from a biased big-government source, but it is enough to scare me:
Quote:http://www.drugabuse.gov/about-nida/directors-page/messages-director/2012/09/marijuanas-lasting-effects-brain
Marijuana's Lasting Effects on the Brain
NIDA Director Nora Volkow

September 2012

We repeatedly hear the myth that marijuana is a benign drug—that it is not addictive (which it is) or that it does not pose a threat to the user’s health or brain (which it does). A major new study published last week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (and funded partly by NIDA and other NIH institutes) provides objective evidence that, at least for adolescents, marijuana is harmful to the brain.

The new research is part of a large-scale study of health and development conducted in New Zealand. Researchers administered IQ tests to over 1,000 individuals at age 13 (born in 1972 and 1973) and assessed their patterns of cannabis use at several points as they aged. Participants were again tested for IQ at age 38, and their two scores were compared as a function of their marijuana use. The results were striking: Participants who used cannabis heavily in their teens and continued through adulthood showed a significant drop in IQ between the ages of 13 and 38—an average of 8 points for those who met criteria for cannabis dependence. (For context, a loss of 8 IQ points could drop a person of average intelligence into the lowest third of the intelligence range.) Those who started using marijuana regularly or heavily after age 18 showed minor declines. By comparison, those who never used marijuana showed no declines in IQ.

Other studies have shown a link between prolonged marijuana use and cognitive or neural impairment. A recent report in Brain, for example, reveals neural-connectivity impairment in some brain regions following prolonged cannabis use initiated in adolescence or young adulthood. But the New Zealand study is the first prospective study to test young people before their first use of marijuana and again after long-term use (as much as 20+ years later). Indeed, the ruling out of a pre-existing difference in IQ makes the study particularly valuable. Also, and strikingly, those who used marijuana heavily before age 18 showed mental decline even after they quit taking the drug. This finding is consistent with the notion that drug use during adolescence—when the brain is still rewiring, pruning, and organizing itself—can have negative and long-lasting effects on the brain.

While this study cannot exclude all potential contributory factors (e.g., child abuse, subclinical mental illness, mild learning disabilities), the neuropsychological declines following marijuana use were present even after researchers controlled for factors like years of education, mental illness, and use of other substances. Mental impairment was evident not just in test scores but in users’ daily functioning. People who knew the study participants (e.g., friends and relatives) filled out questionnaires and reported that persistent cannabis users had significantly more memory and attention problems: easily getting distracted, misplacing things, forgetting to keep appointments or return calls, and so on.

Unfortunately, the proportion of American teens who believe marijuana use is harmful has been declining for the past several years, which has corresponded to a steady rise in their use of the drug, as shown by NIDA’s annual Monitoring the Future survey of 8th, 10th, and 12th graders. Since it decreases IQ, regular marijuana use stands to jeopardize a young person’s chances of success in school. So as another school year begins, we all must step up our efforts to educate teens about the harms of marijuana so that we can realign their perceptions of this drug with the scientific evidence.

The (nasty big-government) website http://www.drugabuse.gov has a lot more information.

Sure Tylenol, exercise, etc etc. alter our perception in a way, but not like this.


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - Scriptorium - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:20 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: So we can work, or take care of our families, or concentrate better, or be more charitable to people, etc., I guess.  I know it's ok to relieve pain.

Okay, so if Joe Blow wants to take a hit now and then because it takes the edge off of life, is he justified, to work, or take care of his family, or concentrate better, or be more charitable to people, etc.? You see?


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - per_passionem_eius - 10-31-2012

(10-30-2012, 11:36 PM)knittycat Wrote: The point is, MJ simply isn't as intoxicating as booze or addicting as cigarettes.  All three can stunt development if they're introduced at delicate stages of growth, but only one is illegal.

Many kids never grow up learning to deal with their emotions, so if someone like this starts using marijuana in their 40s, wouldn't it have just as bad an effect?


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - per_passionem_eius - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:26 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-31-2012, 07:20 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: So we can work, or take care of our families, or concentrate better, or be more charitable to people, etc., I guess.  I know it's ok to relieve pain.

Okay, so if Joe Blow wants to take a hit now and then because it takes the edge off of life, is he justified, to work, or take care of his family, or concentrate better, or be more charitable to people, etc.? You see?

I think the best we can do is ask our confessor.


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - knittycat - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:29 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote:
(10-30-2012, 11:36 PM)knittycat Wrote: The point is, MJ simply isn't as intoxicating as booze or addicting as cigarettes.  All three can stunt development if they're introduced at delicate stages of growth, but only one is illegal.

Many kids never grow up learning to deal with their emotions, so if someone like this starts using marijuana in their 40s, wouldn't it have just as bad an effect?
The same question could be asked of booze and tobacco.  Seriously.  This is getting silly.  I think I've made my point sufficiently.


Re: Smoking pot a mortal sin - per_passionem_eius - 10-31-2012

(10-31-2012, 07:31 PM)knittycat Wrote:
(10-31-2012, 07:29 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote:
(10-30-2012, 11:36 PM)knittycat Wrote: The point is, MJ simply isn't as intoxicating as booze or addicting as cigarettes.  All three can stunt development if they're introduced at delicate stages of growth, but only one is illegal.

Many kids never grow up learning to deal with their emotions, so if someone like this starts using marijuana in their 40s, wouldn't it have just as bad an effect?
The same question could be asked of booze and tobacco.  Seriously.  This is getting silly.  I think I've made my point sufficiently.

The discussion is about trying to distinguish what's sinful in using these things.  I know it's not easy.  I'm not pretending it is.