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Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - Printable Version

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Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - jim111 - 12-30-2012

All the statistics websites that are in full communion start after Vatican 2. Can someone like me to one that starts before the drop started.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - SMKMI - 12-30-2012

Decline of what, exactly?

Membership? Mass Attendance?

This would need to be compared to overall societal shifts in all Christian variants, and even extra-Christian religions, as it could be a societal shift rather than solely relegated to the Catholic Church.

Statistics are funny little buggers and are more like silly putty than concrete. Be care the conclusions you draw.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - Mithrandylan - 12-30-2012

http://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/catholichome/page3.phtml

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

http://catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

Why can't they be "from" the SSPX site?  I'm sure if the SSPX site has stats on it, they're using the same sources everyone else is.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - jim111 - 12-30-2012

(12-30-2012, 11:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: http://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/catholichome/page3.phtml

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

http://catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

Why can't they be "from" the SSPX site?  I'm sure if the SSPX site has stats on it, they're using the same sources everyone else is.
Because I'm showing it to the neocons


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - SMKMI - 12-30-2012

(12-30-2012, 11:23 PM)jim111 Wrote:
(12-30-2012, 11:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: http://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/catholichome/page3.phtml

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

http://catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

Why can't they be "from" the SSPX site?  I'm sure if the SSPX site has stats on it, they're using the same sources everyone else is.
Because I'm showing it to the neocons

Do what anyone who uses wikipedia with an ounce of common sense does: quote the source, not the person quoting the source. If the SSPX gives stats, they must give a source. Just quote the source.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - Mithrandylan - 12-30-2012

(12-30-2012, 11:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: http://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/catholichome/page3.phtml

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

http://catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

Why can't they be "from" the SSPX site?  I'm sure if the SSPX site has stats on it, they're using the same sources everyone else is.

The first link I quoted to is a website that promotes Bayside.  Though the statistics they provide are "legit" I would warn Catholics against going to this site.  The other sites linked use the same statistics from the same source.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - jovan66102 - 12-30-2012

(12-30-2012, 10:55 PM)jim111 Wrote: All the statistics websites that are in full communion start after Vatican 2. Can someone like me to one that starts before the drop started.

Here you go:

The Fruit of Vatican II

An index of Catholicism's decline
A review by Pat Buchanan

As the Watergate scandal of 1973-1974 diverted attention from the far greater tragedy unfolding in Southeast Asia, so, too, the scandal of predator-priests now afflicting the Catholic Church may be covering up a far greater calamity.

Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism. Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II. His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself. Here are Jones's grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.
The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?
Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.

Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.

Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

This article is taken from http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20021211.shtml

"Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II" (113 pages) by Kenneth C. Jones is available at many bookstores.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - Phillipus Iacobus - 12-30-2012

(12-30-2012, 11:39 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(12-30-2012, 10:55 PM)jim111 Wrote: All the statistics websites that are in full communion start after Vatican 2. Can someone like me to one that starts before the drop started.

Here you go:

The Fruit of Vatican II

An index of Catholicism's decline
A review by Pat Buchanan

As the Watergate scandal of 1973-1974 diverted attention from the far greater tragedy unfolding in Southeast Asia, so, too, the scandal of predator-priests now afflicting the Catholic Church may be covering up a far greater calamity.

Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism. Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II. His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself. Here are Jones's grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.
The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?
Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.

Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.

Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

This article is taken from http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20021211.shtml

"Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II" (113 pages) by Kenneth C. Jones is available at many bookstores.

This.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - Freudentaumel - 12-31-2012

Here are the statistics of Catholics and Mass attendance in Germany, 1950-2011, from the official website of the German Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Here is the statistic of ordinations in the Netherlands.


Re: Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site - ggreg - 12-31-2012

(12-30-2012, 11:23 PM)jim111 Wrote:
(12-30-2012, 11:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: http://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/catholichome/page3.phtml

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

http://catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

Why can't they be "from" the SSPX site?  I'm sure if the SSPX site has stats on it, they're using the same sources everyone else is.
Because I'm showing it to the neocons

Just give them a mirror.

If they won't believe what they see with their own eyes they certainly won't believe your stats.

Bad news has no impact on them because according to their soon to be canonised saint we can hope all men are saved.  So what if people lapse?  In 100 years who is going to care?