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Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Burdensome1 - 02-15-2013

Quote:Wow. So all the evils that have befallen the Catholic Church in the last 40 years was the fault of the Kennedys? Not Vatican II, modernism, relativism, communism, or materialism?

I quoted the article, so I guess I have to defend it against even stupid attacks.

No.  No one said that.  The reasoning is that Teddy was instrumental in the acceptance of Democratic pro-choice politics by Catholics, and that the intellectual foundations of this were laid at this meeting.  If you have an alternate theory on how and when Teddy learned how to be pro choice and still act "Catholic" than at a conclave with dissident priests, feel free to write about it.  That's basically what I want to discuss.  But, if you want to be a typical web wanker..did you hear the Pope is abdicating?  You might want to go post in one of those threads.


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Someone1776 - 02-15-2013

(02-15-2013, 07:36 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: The idea that a living JFK would have somehow bucked his entire party on abortion after paving the way with his denial of the primacy of the informed conscience in Catholic politics AND being a lout, liar, adulterer and abuser of women...if you believe that I'd like to discuss the sale of a bridge I own.

You don't know that. Maybe you're right. Maybe JFK would have come out against Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. Dead mean aren't responsible for things that happen after they're dead.

Quote:Nah.  This family was evil.  Cafeteria Catholics who made that lifestyle not only acceptable but sophisticated and chic.  I'm so glad I didn't live through Camelot and have my good sense clouded by it.

Who are you to condemn a whole family?

Not all of the Kennedys were or are pro-choice.  Eunice Kennedy for one maintained strong pro-life credentials to her death.  


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Burdensome1 - 02-15-2013

Quote:Dead mean aren't responsible for things that happen after they're dead.

More Camelot romance.  This is the guy who articulated the intellectual position used by pro-abort Catholic politicians, now. 




Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Someone1776 - 02-15-2013

(02-15-2013, 07:41 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote:
Quote:Wow. So all the evils that have befallen the Catholic Church in the last 40 years was the fault of the Kennedys? Not Vatican II, modernism, relativism, communism, or materialism?

I quoted the article, so I guess I have to defend it against even stupid attacks.

No.  No one said that.  The reasoning is that Teddy was instrumental in the acceptance of Democratic pro-choice politics by Catholics, and that the intellectual foundations of this were laid at this meeting.  If you have an alternate theory on how and when Teddy learned how to be pro choice and still act "Catholic" than at a conclave with dissident priests, feel free to write about it.  That's basically what I want to discuss.  But, if you want to be a typical web wanker..did you hear the Pope is abdicating?  You might want to go post in one of those threads.

How do you explain Ted Kennedy holding saying the following in 1971 while Governor Ronald Reagan of California legalized abortion in his state?

Quote:"While the deep concern of a woman bearing an unwanted child merits consideration and sympathy, it is my personal feeling that the legalization of abortion on demand is not in accordance with the value which our civilization places on human life."

"Wanted or unwanted, I believe that human life, even at its earliest stages, has certain rights which must be recognized -- the right to be born, the right to love, the right to grow old. When history looks back at this era it should recognize this generation as one which cared about human beings enough to halt the practice of war, to provide a decent living for every family, and to fulfill its responsibility to its children from the very moment of conception."

I don't claim Ted Kennedy was the greatest Catholic, but there is no evidence that he came out early swinging for abortion. The record is to the contrary.


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - per_passionem_eius - 02-15-2013

(02-15-2013, 04:34 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: I think it follows that a lot of bad has come from the position John first articulated, of private religion not affecting public office.

Do you have a particular quote in mind?  Something that could have caused him to be excommunicated?


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Tim - 02-15-2013

(02-15-2013, 07:36 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote:
Quote:JFK was killed Nov. 22, 1963. He was not present at those meetings in 1964. So he had nothing to do with that. As late as 1971 Teddy was still pro-life, it's on the record. So a better interpretation is those renegade theologians tried to make the Kennedys come over to the abortion issue. They suceeded when Roe v. Wade was adopted by the Democrats, and their reasoning became a cover for Catholic Politicians. I can't remember the RFK run for NY, so I'll not comment.

Born in '71 to republican parents in the South, I will never be able to understand the Catholic romance with the Kennedys.  However, even if I don't understand it, I can see how it clouds people's minds.  These dissident priests approached whom exactly?  The one Catholic political family expressly and manifestly dedicated to winning votes by swearing that they would not let Catholic teaching get in the way of the will of the people.  And which of the sons first publicly articulated this plan?  John, in '60. 

I suspect, very strongly, that had John lived, he'd have been just as big a DB as the brother who lived turned out to be.  The idea that a living JFK would have somehow bucked his entire party on abortion after paving the way with his denial of the primacy of the informed conscience in Catholic politics AND being a lout, liar, adulterer and abuser of women...if you believe that I'd like to discuss the sale of a bridge I own.

Nah.  This family was evil.  Cafeteria Catholics who made that lifestyle not only acceptable but sophisticated and chic.  I'm so glad I didn't live through Camelot and have my good sense clouded by it.

I was born in Catholic ghetto in the days after the war to mixed parenatge both Catholic, one Irish, the other Genovese, and both Republicans since the families came. I was Republican Judge of Election, and the Kennedys while political foes were not seen as evil in those days. The father Joe was a bootlegger and an Ambassaor, but wasn't any part of Chicago politics. I have no hero worship for JFK, but I remember his murder quite clearly.

You assert that John started this plan in 1960, and I don't know where you get this. The pill was not yet in wide use except in Southern States, in fact it was outlawed in 41 and Alaska and Hawaii were not yet states. If JFK hatched this plan in 1960 he was clairavoyant.

Here's a letter from Ted Kennedy;

Ted Kennedy: Pro-life?
You may have seen this before, but it is a new one to me. Apparently, Sen. Ted Kennedy held very strong pro-life views back in 1971. This is a letter that he wrote to a constituent who had asked his perspective on the issue. It is one of the most well-written responses. If only he had maintained this view the rest of his political career:

Edward M. Kennedy
Massachusetts
United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510

August 3, 1971

Mr. Thomas E. Dennelly
34 Baker Hill Road
Great Neck, New York 11023

Dear Mr. Dennelly:

I appreciate your letter containing your views on abortion. There are many moral and legal aspects arising from this complex issue which is gaining the acceptance of large numbers of women faced with unwanted pregnancies, while disturbing the consciences of a great many other Americans.

Opponents maintain that abortion is wrong from every theological, moral and medical aspect. Proponents are firmly convinced that the woman, alone, has the right to decide.

While the deep concern of a woman bearing an unwanted child merits consideration and sympathy, it is my personal feeling that the legalization of abortion on demand is not in accordance with the value which our civilization places on human life. Wanted or unwanted, I believe that human life, even at its earliest stages, has certain right which must be recognized - the right to be born, the right to love, the right to grow old.

On the question of the individual's freedom of choice there are easily available birth control methods and information which women may employ to prevent or postpone pregnancy. But once life has begun, no matter at what stage of growth, it is my belief that termination should not be decided merely by desire.

I share the confidence of those who feel that America is willing to care for its unwanted as well as wanted children, protecting particularly those who cannot protect themselves. I also share the opinions of those who do not accept abortion as a response to our society's problems - an inadequate welfare system, unsatisfactory job training programs, and insufficient financial support for all its citizens.

When history looks back on this era it should recognize this generation as one which cared about human beings enough to halt the practice of war, to provide a decent living for every family, and to fulfill its responsibility to its children from the moment of conception.

Sincerely,
Edward M. Kennedy

here's where I found it;

http://afriarslife.blogspot.com/2009/09/ted-kennedy-pro-life.html

It appears to me what you have is conservative pornography. The reason I defended the Kennedys is I was on the ground back then, and there is a current today to twist the truth to suit peoples prejudices to gain favor and twist there minds. Abortion should never be legal, nor the pill for contraception. What occured was well orchestrated plan on several fronts and the architects were the Philanthropies which have been angling ever since Margaret Sanger and Eugenics to get rid of Africans, Hispanics, Catholics and in those days Jews. All of them had too many children, and the Blue Bloods which Kennedy fought wanted us dead.

tim


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Burdensome1 - 02-15-2013

Quote:It appears to me what you have is conservative pornography. The reason I defended the Kennedys is I was on the ground back then, and there is a current today to twist the truth to suit peoples prejudices to gain favor and twist there minds. Abortion should never be legal, nor the pill for contraception. What occured was well orchestrated plan on several fronts and the architects were the Philanthropies which have been angling ever since Margaret Sanger and Eugenics to get rid of Africans, Hispanics, Catholics and in those days Jews. All of them had too many children, and the Blue Bloods which Kennedy fought wanted us dead.

I'm aware of the eugenics movement, Sanger, her racism, and that whole current of thought that captivated so many WASPs in the 20th century.

Unfortunately, the Kennedys tested the wind, found their fortune lay with precisely those people, and went in for it.  My opinion is that, like Barack Obama on gay marriage, these evolutions of political opinions are predictable.  They simply follow the votes. 

As to whether Ted was pro-abortion in 1964 or 1971 or not until 1975...I don't see the point.  He caved, and once he caved he made good use of what Charlie Curran taught him.  I suspect, and this is just a personal suspicion based upon his life, that those children he could have saved were as dead as Mary Jo Kopechne starting '64 and maybe before...because I will bet $5 that the Kennedy boys *caused* their fair share of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade was a sparkle in Thurgood Marshall's vodka tonic.  Jack most certainly, and this is not supposition, had many, many, many extramarital trysts (his sympathetic biographers report his demand while an officeholder of at least one session per day, and not with Jackie, and his female aides corroborate this appetite), and as you note the pill was not in common use at the time.  We do not see a plethora of Kennedy bastards writing books and giving interviews about their father JFK.  Ergo, I deduce JFK had a strong personal opinion about abortion.  Refute me, if you can.




Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - DrBombay - 02-15-2013

(02-15-2013, 02:01 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: I found this blog entry fascinating

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2013/the-kennedys-versus-the-church.html

in part:

Quote: Publicly, the Kennedys patronized the Church, but privately they helped create a shadow church of religious laymen and clergy who helped them rationalize their own version of Catholicism.

The Catholic pro-abortion movement, for instance, was hatched at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port. In the summer of 1964, Bobby and Ted Kennedy met at the Cape with some leading dissident priests – Robert Drinan, Richard McCormick, Joseph Fuchs, and Charles Curran – to figure out how Catholic politicians could pander to the growing abortion movement without upsetting their Catholic constituencies.

According to one witness, the theologians “concurred on certain basics. . .that a Catholic politician could in good conscience vote in favor of abortion.” The action plan developed that week in Hyannis Port, in sociologist Anne Hendershott’s judgment, contributed to effectively neutralizing the Catholic laity and “helped build the foundation for the [Democratic] party’s reincarnation as the party of abortion.”

I went ahead and ordered the biography of Joe Kennedy being advertised in the story, should be a good read.

I have one priest friend who mentions often how glad he is that JFK "went to confession in Dallas the night before he was shot" but I own the Mansfield "Death of a President" which is basically a minute-by-minute chronology of JFK's last hours which mentions nothing about it. 

It seems in retrospect that the only real opportunity to keep Catholic politicians in the USA in the Church was lost when the Church failed to excommunicate JFK during the campaign. 

Thoughts?

On what grounds should JFK have been excommed, exactly?


Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Burdensome1 - 02-15-2013

Quote:I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President -- should he be Catholic -- how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him, or the people who might elect him.

I want a Chief Executive whose public acts are responsible to all and obligated to none, who can attend any ceremony, service, or dinner his office may appropriately require of him to fulfill; and whose fulfillment of his Presidential office is not limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual, or obligation.

I ask you tonight to follow in that tradition -- to judge me on the basis of 14 years in the Congress, on my declared stands against an Ambassador to the Vatican, against unconstitutional aid to parochial schools, and against any boycott of the public schools -- which I attended myself. And instead of doing this, do not judge me on the basis of these pamphlets and publications we all have seen that carefully select quotations out of context from the statements of Catholic church leaders, usually in other countries, frequently in other centuries, and rarely relevant to any situation here. And always omitting, of course, the statement of the American Bishops in 1948 which strongly endorsed Church-State separation, and which more nearly reflects the views of almost every American Catholic.

I do not speak for my church on public matters; and the church does not speak for me. Whatever issue may come before me as President, if I should be elected, on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject, I will make my decision in accordance with these views -- in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be in the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressure or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.   -John F. Kennedy

Address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association

By denying that the Church's social teaching had any place in the civil domain, JFK provides a textbook perfect definition of the heresy of Americanism.  Condemned by Leo XIII, he could have been excommunicated for it. 

Now, I have read your posts, and I know you probably don't actually care, but I thought it was a fair question that deserved actual quotations from the man. 

It seems the Kennedys are still the the issue par excellence that makes any Catholic act liberal, even raging trads.



Re: JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects - Tim - 02-15-2013

Burdensome,
You do realize your argument is not substantiated by facts ?  You do need to understand that the world back then was different. No fault divorce, the Enovid-E pill, and abortion were still off in the future when JFK was murdered. Both parties had liberals and conservatives then, it wasn't all on either side. Loking back then and judging by today's light is a mistake. While JFK was a rounder with prettty women, sex as it is today was not the way back then. Richard Daley, the Mayor of Chicago and a Kennedy ally and close friend, fought the downstate pols to keep the pill illegal in Illinois. He was double crossed by the Republicans in 1964.

tim