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Papolatry in the Trad World - Printable Version

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Papolatry in the Trad World - VoxClamantis - 03-17-2013

Since the election of Pope Francis, it hit me that what's going on with all this yackety-yack -- so much of it ugly -- boils down to papolatry. I've read that, in 26 hours, His Holiness has destroyed everything that Benedict accomplished. I've read that it's the end of the world. I've seen the equivalent of Bette Davis's "Fasten your seatbelt; it's gonna be a bumpy night" more times than I can count.

And I have to ask:  WTF?

I also have to ask how this papacy will truly affect your lives as trads if, say, he were "another JPII" (and assuming he doesn't do anything to mess with the motu proprio, which I can't imagine him doing)? Seriously. How would his doing, say, the JPII thing of hosting Assisi events, or going to the Wailing Wall and davening like a Hebrew affect your existence other than to give you someting to get pissy about on the internet? Would it affect where you go to Mass? Would it affect how you pray, how often you pray, where you send your kids to school, what spiritual readings you take on, what you eat for breakfast, or what brand of vodka you buy?

Why the vitriol -- even if you have very low expectations for this Pope and see him as "just another JPII" (which he could well turn out to be)?

-- or maybe, pray God, he'll turn out to be a great Pope, in spite of some of the liturgical horrors and alleged ecumenical strangeness in his past. It could happen. All things are possible with God, after all.

But in either case, how do you imagine his papacy -- a bad one or a great one -- re-arranging your life to such a degree that cries of "it's the end of the world" even cross your mind?

And how is such a view of the papacy traditional? Since when is the Pope treated as less than the very human Vicar of Christ who can't teach error when speaking on faith and morals to the whole Church, than like a Fairy Godfather who can wave a wand and make all our dreams come true overnight -- or cause the brambles to grow up and over the castle walls in the same time period?

The view of the papacy seems to have become infected with magical thinking. "Just get the right guy in there, and everything will be peachy!" Or, conversely, "Well, we got a Jezzie who won't wear the red shoes. It's over." Come on, guys. Like I mentioned in another thread, Pope St. Pius X was earthly head of a Church he said was infiltrated with modernists. He obviously wasn't successful in ridding Her of them either.

While there are good Popes and bad Popes, and while it'd be great to have a good one, most of the problem with the Church is us. The folks in the pews. We outnumber the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests by billions. One man in Rome can't fix it all; we have to pitch in by using the motu proprio and establishing TLMs in as many places as we can, evangelizing with prudence and charity and common sense, raising Catholic children, picking up where the badly-formed priests leave off, taking over RCIA classes in our parishes, re-infiltrating the seminaries and monasteries, forming new religious orders, and stopping with the incessant whining like a buncha babies who are waiting for Daddy to come along and make everything all right. Yeah, we're the sheep and the Pope is the shepherd, but even sheep have brains, and even a good shepherd can't herd sheep who refuse to use their legs. And if the sheep have a bad shepherd but also brains enough to know they have a bad shepherd, then what should the sheep do? Sit around and bleat? Or get to work?

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - Clare Brigid - 03-17-2013

Thank you, Vox.  Another way to describe the discourse we've seen here the last few days is black-and-white thinking.  It's a sign of intellectual and emotional immaturity.  Unfortunately, it is endemic to traditional Catholic circles.

To decry this black-and-white thinking is not to say that the faith should be compromised or that it's fine to dump ecclesiastical traditions.  It pertains, rather, to the sphere of prudence and to the virtue of hope. 

In other words, the chastisement is not coming because Pope Francis wears black shoes or gives a generic blessing.

Vox, I see the solution the same way you do.  We have the advantage of being on the ground.  It's a real advantage.  We can help create the conditions for the emergence of a hierarchy in the future that will fully respect ecclesiastical traditions.  Going Orthodox, sedevacantist or fishing will not get the job done.

And one more thing to my hyperventilating brothers and sisters . . . itsa not so bad, SHADDAP YOU FACE.

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - JayneK - 03-17-2013

I have seen posts claiming that people are not realistic if they are not hopping on the "it's the end of the Church/ end of the world" bandwagon.  The sort of panic and despair I have been seeing among some trads is not realism.  It is a sin against the virtue of faith.  I have also seen people accused of optimism as if it were a bad thing.  Hello, we're Catholics.  Hope is a virtue.  This is God's Church and He is worthy of all our trust.

Also, from a more worldly perspective, panic is always useless.  (See Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)  Panic is also very undignified.  Keep on keeping on, people.

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - JacafamalaRedux - 03-17-2013

Ah, voice of reason. He is our pope. Deal.

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - JacafamalaRedux - 03-17-2013

Holy Father, B16, I knew this would happen! I knew it would!

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - Tim - 03-17-2013

Well, you realize the kids are still asleep. It's early am when mom and dad can have the first cup of coffee in quiet, but soon they'll awake.

Seriously this poor Pope Francis hasn't been allowed the time to make his first decision yet, which they can get worked up about. It's pre-emptive war ala George Bush. Vox, I don't know how you do it. I'd shut it down and invite people back one at a time. Oh well it's time for Sunday.


Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - JustaServant - 03-17-2013

(03-17-2013, 06:26 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: And I have to ask:  WTF?

Is this the same mouth that will partake of the Eucharist this morning?

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - demoslider - 03-17-2013

She didn't say it, she typed it. I don't think Vox takes Communion in the hand, so no need to be so outraged.  :)

(03-17-2013, 08:12 AM)JustaServant Wrote:
(03-17-2013, 06:26 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: And I have to ask:  WTF?

Is this the same mouth that will partake of the Eucharist this morning?

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - JayneK - 03-17-2013

(03-17-2013, 08:12 AM)JustaServant Wrote:
(03-17-2013, 06:26 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: And I have to ask:  WTF?

Is this the same mouth that will partake of the Eucharist this morning?

Well, this supports the "trying to get banned so he can complain about it on CAF" theory.  You started a thread complaining about how people here were talking about the Pope.  So the owner makes a post telling people to smarten up, do you thank her?  Do you have anything positive to say about her addressing the problem you identified?  No, you pretend to be shocked by her choice of wording. 

Re: Papolatry in the Trad World - nmoerbeek - 03-17-2013

Well here are a few considerations

1)  The Suppression of the Jesuits in 1767 by Clement XIV, had a massive impact on both Europe and the rest of the world, especially Missions, the Catholic Church never recovered in certain areas
2)  The Suppression of the Knights Templar was done by Papal action, not insignificant considering their Rule of Life was approved at an ecumenical council, and the fact that they were a multi national Army fighting in the service of the Church, Interesting enough after their suppression you saw massive increases in Nationalism amongst European Nations.
3)  The New Roman Missal was approved and Promoted by Paul VI, which did have not a small impact on the Church.

I agree that worry and anxiety does not serve a useful purpose.  However, the Pope does have great power "the keys to the kingdom" after all.  There have been many Churchs out in my area that have been wreckovated and while it is not the fault of the Pope directly, it is normally the fault of the Bishop and the Pastor that was appointed by that Bishop.  Its going to be the New Bishops and Cardinals appointed who will have a large personal impact on our lives.  

There are other things but I don't want to beat the point to death.

"What will separate us from the love Christ has for us?" Romans 8:35