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Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Printable Version

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Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Sant Anselmo - 04-16-2013

(04-16-2013, 12:05 PM)Lee Timmer Wrote: Why would anyone torture himself by visiting CAF? Unless it was assigned as a penance, I see no reason to deal with the blind on that forum.

Because they are the ones that need to be reached if things are going to change.  The people on CAF represent the more conservative end of the mainstream Catholic Church, particularly in the USA.  If you want to see things changed at the parish level, they are going to have to be brought on board and get behind the changes.  We know those who dissent on Faith and Morals will probably never be in agreement, but if we can get the majority of the CAF crowd, things can begin to improve. 

Or, as someone else put it a few days ago here on FE, instructing the ignorant is one of the spiritual works of mercy. 


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Unum Sint - 04-16-2013

(04-16-2013, 12:43 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 12:05 PM)Lee Timmer Wrote: Why would anyone torture himself by visiting CAF? Unless it was assigned as a penance, I see no reason to deal with the blind on that forum.

Because they are the ones that need to be reached if things are going to change.  The people on CAF represent the more conservative end of the mainstream Catholic Church, particularly in the USA.  If you want to see things changed at the parish level, they are going to have to be brought on board and get behind the changes.  We know those who dissent on Faith and Morals will probably never be in agreement, but if we can get the majority of the CAF crowd, things can begin to improve. 

Or, as someone else put it a few days ago here on FE, instructing the ignorant is one of the spiritual works of mercy. 

Indeed.


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Lee Timmer - 04-16-2013

(04-16-2013, 12:43 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 12:05 PM)Lee Timmer Wrote: Why would anyone torture himself by visiting CAF? Unless it was assigned as a penance, I see no reason to deal with the blind on that forum.

Because they are the ones that need to be reached if things are going to change.  The people on CAF represent the more conservative end of the mainstream Catholic Church, particularly in the USA.  If you want to see things changed at the parish level, they are going to have to be brought on board and get behind the changes.  We know those who dissent on Faith and Morals will probably never be in agreement, but if we can get the majority of the CAF crowd, things can begin to improve. 

Or, as someone else put it a few days ago here on FE, instructing the ignorant is one of the spiritual works of mercy. 

I was being somewhat faceitious. That being said, I would say that many - if not most - of the people who post there can't (or won't) face the facts that there's even a crisis to begin with. You can lead a horse to water...


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Sant Anselmo - 04-16-2013

(04-16-2013, 01:12 PM)Lee Timmer Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 12:43 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 12:05 PM)Lee Timmer Wrote: Why would anyone torture himself by visiting CAF? Unless it was assigned as a penance, I see no reason to deal with the blind on that forum.

Because they are the ones that need to be reached if things are going to change.  The people on CAF represent the more conservative end of the mainstream Catholic Church, particularly in the USA.  If you want to see things changed at the parish level, they are going to have to be brought on board and get behind the changes.  We know those who dissent on Faith and Morals will probably never be in agreement, but if we can get the majority of the CAF crowd, things can begin to improve. 

Or, as someone else put it a few days ago here on FE, instructing the ignorant is one of the spiritual works of mercy. 

I was being somewhat faceitious. That being said, I would say that many - if not most - of the people who post there can't (or won't) face the facts that there's even a crisis to begin with. You can lead a horse to water...

Many people here on FE were exclusively at CAF before.  It is being exposed to certain things here and there which led me to see more of the reality of our Church and the state she is in.  We now have a Cardinal admitting a crisis.  That is something which can be used to open eyes, in particular since he is typically thought of as a non-traditionalist. 




Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Philosoraptor - 04-16-2013

I am not terribly surprised at this admission, though it does of course make me rather unhappy. I have been reading John XXIII's Opening Address, which seemed to presume the world wanted or even acknowledged the teaching of the Church. Not being around the 60s, I can's speak to the climate, but fifty years since...well anything but openness to the Gospel has characterized regimes in the West.

Though I have not fully investigated the matter myself, I follow the Pope and the Magisterium, and refuse to read Vatican II in anything but an expression of earlier Tradition. However, I'm still confused and saddened about the state of the Church, and it's easy to see how the ambiguities in Vatican II could be exploited by the Enemy. I don't think the answer is as simple as "If there had been no V.II, no change to the Mass, the Church would not be in this crisis," but every now and then I do wonder how much Vatican II helped during the crisis of the 60s, 70s, and 80s.


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Cetil - 07-16-2013

I don't quite understand why Kasper's remarks are considered such news as Cardinal Dulles made similar remarks in 2003 and also called the ambiguities "deliberate":

"The council fathers, under the direction of Pope Paul VI, made every effort to achieve unanimity and express the consensus of the whole episcopate, not the ideas of one particular school. For this reason, they sought to harmonize differing views, without excluding any significant minority. In some cases they adopted deliberate ambiguities."

http://americamagazine.org/issue/423/article/vatican-ii-myth-and-reality

As I recall Paul VI also referred to ambiguities in the texts shortly after the council and warned of the troubles they could cause but lately I am having trouble locating  his remarks. But having grown up under Vatican II in the USA the main problem I saw was that the so called "progressives" did not twist the words of the council so much as they pretended the council said things it never in fact said. I think they pretty much followed what Pope Benedict called "the council of the media."

C.


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - Philosoraptor - 07-17-2013

Quote:Having grown up under Vatican II in the USA the main problem I saw was that the so called "progressives" did not twist the words of the council so much as they pretended the council said things it never in fact said.
Exactly. The problem is not really the ambiguities (though I don't think they are harmless), but those who use the Council as an excuse for their apostasy. For example, anyone who's even glanced and Lumen Gentium can remember that it says "The Roman Pontiff has full, supreme, and universal power over the Church, and he is always free to exercise this power."(Council of Trent-clarity here!) Forgive me if I say this is Vatican II being perfectly clear.  But heretics like Gary Wills pretend that Vatican II transferred sovereignty of the Church to the laity; the Church is now a "democracy". This view is understandably popular and has infected American Catholicism's ecclesiology in awful ways - in some ways the worst when it has not quite gotten to outright heresy but a quiet and subtle poison.

And such examples could be multiplied endlessly.


Re: Card. Kasper, VII Documents-Admits to intentional compromise - 2Vermont - 07-17-2013

What I found interesting about this when it was first brought to my attention was that this was not a traditionalist admitting to this/bringing this to our attention....which I found odd.  So I asked myself, why would someone who adores Vatican II make this admission?  Being the suspicious person that I am, lol, I figured there had to be a reason for this.  If one reads the Cardinal's words carefully, it seems to me that he was admitting compromises, etc. but that the reason they happened was because the "minority" didn't want to go along with the way things were worded, etc. originally.  So, effectively, his admission is not to put down VII, but to place blame on the "minority".....and we all know who the minority is, don't we? 

So, you see, if it weren't for the traditionalist Cardinals making a stink about what was put in there in the first place, these documents would be clear!!  Completely in error, but clear!!