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Salvation and the Jews - Philosoraptor - 04-21-2013

Recently I have been delighting in paradox - the paradox of orthodoxy, of the Faith, and the Church. But this time, it's the paradox of St. Paul.

I grew up with Saint Paul. I was an Evangelical Protestant from my youth till about 17, and read his letters vigorously; memorized Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 13. Apparently I missed something important in his discussion of the Jews. This requires preface.

I recently read/heard about Nostra Aetate's claim that the Jews do not bear collective responsibility for the Crucifixion. This was odd, I thought, because in the Gospel accounts the chief priests and Pharisees say, "His blood be on our head and on our children", and Christ's own words to Pilate: "He who hath delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin." These could be interpreted to exclude Jews, I thought. What's the deal? Obviously the solution is simple: a) Christ forgave His murderers. If the Jews (meaning the Temple aristocracy) were responsible for His death, He has forgiven them; b) a curse in the Old Testament only lasts "unto the third or fourth generation", so even if a) is true and b) is not, the collective Jews today would not be responsible for the Passion. c) chiefly responsible for the Passion are "the sins of all men, from Adam's fall to the end of time," as is written in the Roman Catechism. d) the blood of Christ, unlike Abel's, cries out not for vengeance, but reconciliation; it is an inexhaustible fount of mercy, not a plea for divine wrathful justice. In these senses then, Nostra Aetate is entirely correct.

However, it gets crazier. Romans 11.25-29 reads,
Quote:Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Stunning. As I read this, once the full number of the Gentiles has entered the Church, the Jews will be freed of their hardened heart and recognize with new eyes Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Aquinas' commentary on Romans seems to confirm this interpretation: cf. http://nvjournal.net/files/Aquinas_on_Romans.pdf (Ctl+F search '915' once the document loads)

This further seems to mean that the Jews are still God's Chosen People, and that He has not abandoned them, but will safeguard them all unto salvation! Their dignity as the Chosen People is not removed, but confirmed under the divine promise of the sacred scriptures. This puts my perspective of the Jews in a new light, even the modern nation of Israel.



Re: Salvation and the Jews - jim111 - 04-21-2013

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally.  Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation.  All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”


Re: Salvation and the Jews - James02 - 04-21-2013

Quote: and that He has not abandoned them, but will safeguard them all unto salvation!

What do you mean "all"?  Those who have died unbaptized without Faith in Christ are lost.  They won't be saved.  As far as God not abandoning them, that is a non-sequitur.  They abandoned Him and made void the covenant:
Jer 31 Wrote:Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
and
Deut. 31 Wrote:And the Lord said to Moses: Behold thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, and this people rising up will go a fornicating after strange gods in the land, to which it goeth in to dwell: there will they forsake me, and will make void the covenant, which I have made with them,

As far as collective guilt, consult scripture:
1 Thess. 2 Wrote:For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, [15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men;

[16] Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.

But yes, it is a common opinion that in the end times the Jews will convert and be baptized. I probably lean that way.  However, modern Jewry is based on the Talmud and is predated by the Catholic Church.  The Jewish religion was destroyed when the Temple was destroyed.


Re: Salvation and the Jews - Scriptorium - 04-22-2013

God's everlasting covenants are, well, everlasting. The Jewish religion didn't die. It is called Catholicism. The Jews have gone astray, but God has not forgotten His people. Those who accept Christ now can be saved. In the end there will be a flood of grace for them as a people, and many will return to the fold as a group. We, however, cannot judge them as a people alone. Each Jew is proposed the Faith just like any other. We have saints also who are models, like St Teresa Benedicta.


Re: Salvation and the Jews - Tim - 04-22-2013

FYI, this was a mystery before Vatican II. It isn't easily brushed aside with they must convert and that's all. These Scriptures propose more than that. Those conversations usually ended with who knows ? That doesn't mean the Jews shouldn't be evangelized but their is mystery in the Scriptures.

tim


Re: Salvation and the Jews - TS Aquinas - 04-23-2013

(04-21-2013, 08:56 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: This further seems to mean that the Jews are still God's Chosen People, and that He has not abandoned them, but will safeguard them all unto salvation! Their dignity as the Chosen People is not removed, but confirmed under the divine promise of the sacred scriptures. This puts my perspective of the Jews in a new light, even the modern nation of Israel.

You may want to revise that position...

Quote:Pope Pius IX Encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]

4. Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.
5. Mt 15.17.
6. Lk 10.16.
7. Mk 16.16.
8. Jn 3.18.
9. Lk 11.23.
10. Ti 3.11.
11. 2 Pt 2.1.



Re: Salvation and the Jews - Philosoraptor - 04-25-2013

How do you interpret Romans 11.25, which specifically states that all Jews will be saved?  A reading which is traditional as far as I can see (Aquinas held it) and which has the authority of Sacred Scripture behind it.


Re: Salvation and the Jews - TS Aquinas - 04-26-2013

(04-25-2013, 11:17 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: How do you interpret Romans 11.25, which specifically states that all Jews will be saved?  A reading which is traditional as far as I can see (Aquinas held it) and which has the authority of Sacred Scripture behind it.

Before I reply, are you stating that "all" Jews before and after Christ are saved? Or only after Christ? Need some clarity on this.

I shall study the issue further regarding what St. Aquinas stated. From what I can tell, at the moment, he held to the interpretation of future conversion of a universal amount in a particular time.


Re: Salvation and the Jews - Philosoraptor - 04-26-2013

I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.


Re: Salvation and the Jews - Scriptorium - 04-26-2013

(04-26-2013, 08:21 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote: I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.

Even Judas ...

Try readings this:

http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/endtimes.html
https://sites.google.com/site/sungenisandthejews/all-israel-will-be-saved

It is probably best to view Roman 11:26 as all Jews at that time will be saved, since the chance of conversion ceases at death.