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Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - jim111 - 04-29-2013

I heard somewhere that Mary did not have a Vaginal birth because she would loose her sign of purity.


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - JacafamalaRedux - 04-29-2013

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there is anything definitive on that either way. Sort of like raising the question 'did Mary die or was she just assumed into heaven prior to death?' One never knows. My guess is that no, she didn't have a vaginal birth and no, she didn't die.


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - St. Pius of Trent - 04-29-2013

Blessed Catherine Emmerich's vision of the birth states that He was born supernaturally, ie, not the "conventional" way. It's quite remarkable when you read it.


She also saw Our Lady die. This would make total sense. The servant is no greater as than it's master. Christ died, so must we all. In addition, Emmerich saw the events leading to her burial, the procession of the apostles and ultimately her empty tomb and signs of her assumption. I believe Emmerich's visions. If you have not read her visions, I urge you to do so. They are incredibly detailed and edifying!


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - JacafamalaRedux - 04-29-2013

(04-29-2013, 07:27 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: Blessed Catherine Emmerich's vision of the birth states that He was born supernaturally, ie, not the "conventional" way. It's quite remarkable when you read it.


She also saw Our Lady die. This would make total sense. The servant is no greater as than it's master. Christ died, so must we all. In addition, Emmerich saw the events leading to her burial, the procession of the apostles and ultimately her empty tomb and signs of her assumption. I believe Emmerich's visions. If you have not read her visions, I urge you to do so. They are incredibly detailed and edifying!

Enoch and Elias were both "taken up, " so I should think that if God took them up without tasting death, how could He do less for the Blessed Mother. But again, who really knows?


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - moneil - 04-29-2013

I was born in 1951, which means that I went to Parochial School taught by nuns in full habits either before VII or before "things changed".  Whenever we asked "these kinds of questions" the standard pre VII response was "It is a mystery; don't worry about, just believe it!"  Makes a lot of sense.  Especially in regards to these mysteries I might suggest one consult St. Paul's first Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 1, verses 22-25:

Quote:[22] For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: [24] But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Whenever men attempt to anthropomorphize the Sacred Mysteries, it often turns into ridiculousness.  Though I can't place the source, I have a memory of once seeing or reading of a priest "attempting" to explain how Mary gave birth to Jesus while remaining perpetually a virgin.  By the time the misguided cleric was done with his pure speculation he practically had Our Lord "beaming out of the womb" like an episode from Star Trek.

It is a Mystery.  The Church teaches it.  We believe it.  That's all.


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - DrBombay - 04-29-2013

I heard a priest on EWTN say she was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Our Lord. Fr. Angelus something or other.  Older guy with a beard. Of course, EWTN is a Network Gone Wrong™, so what do they know?


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - FaithandLove - 04-29-2013

No. His birth was like Easter Sunday. The tomb was already empty when the angel rolled back the stone. He simply passed through without moving it. His birth likewise was miraculous. Listen at audio sancto - culture of death sermons - sermon on the movie "the nativity story"


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - Poche - 04-30-2013

(04-29-2013, 07:01 PM)jim111 Wrote: I heard somewhere that Mary did not have a Vaginal birth because she would loose her sign of purity.
Because she is the mother of God she could have the vaginal birth and still preserve the sign of her purity. God can do anything.
:) :) :)


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - SCG - 04-30-2013

moneil Wrote:By the time the misguided cleric was done with his pure speculation he practically had Our Lord "beaming out of the womb" like an episode from Star Trek.

Yep. Our pastor addressed this before. He worries, as do I, that the denial of a physical birth comes too close to Docetism. We believe that Jesus died a real death, and was born in the natural way. Like Poche, I believe this could happen while still preserving the sign of Mary's purity.

The Bible says Jesus was like us in all things, except sin. The same would be true of Mary.  When we start deliberating on what is meant by "all things" - and how much "humanness" did Jesus and Mary have without somehow lowering their dignity -  we venture into unwelcome and unpleasant speculations.


Re: Did mary have a vaginal Birth. - Chestertonian - 04-30-2013

(04-29-2013, 07:01 PM)jim111 Wrote: I heard somewhere that Mary did not have a Vaginal birth because she would loose her sign of purity.

What's impure about childbirth?  How would having a vaginal birth compromise her purity?  I don't think it does. 

Genesis 3:16 Wrote:To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you."

Painful labor is a punishment for Eve's disobedience, and since Mary was without original sin, one would logically deduce that her birth was pain-free, as God intended it.  But it would be silly to think that birth itself is a consequence of original sin.  If God designed the female reproductive system to work the way it does, how would Our Lord come into the world any other way?

(04-29-2013, 08:48 PM)moneil Wrote: I was born in 1951, which means that I went to Parochial School taught by nuns in full habits either before VII or before "things changed".  Whenever we asked "these kinds of questions" the standard pre VII response was "It is a mystery; don't worry about, just believe it!"

See, that response would really bother me, and I think it is insulting to a child's intelligence to dismiss their curiosity in this way.  As a teacher, I don't think there is anything to be gained by telling your students not to think.  How do you think a young St. Thomas Aquinas would have felt if someone told him at the age of 8, "See, the Holy Trinity is a mystery.  Don't worry about it, just believe it"?  Perhaps some people are simpler than others and this answer would satisfy the minds of simpler souls.  But I know many intelligent people who were turned off by the faith because asking questions and posing challenges was discouraged.  I think it's because sometimes students ask questions that the teacher is not prepared or qualified to answer.  It is better for a teacher to say, "I don't know.  Let's do some research and I'll help you figure it out as much as I can." than to say, "Don't question it, just believe it."