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Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Printable Version

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Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - SaintSebastian - 06-17-2013

It sounds like they're doing the more somber "there was guilt on both sides" kind of joint commemoration, which is how Cardinal Koch explained it last year (rather than a joyful celebration--as he said, "We cannot celebrate a sin.") 
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/06/500-years-of-protestant-reformation-we.html

This shouldn't really be shocking that it is being treated in this way for a long time now (if it were celebrated as a joyful event, then it would be shocking).

Regarding the "guilt on both sides" thing, we've seen in our time the sins of clergy provoke sins in others, so I don't see why it can't be acknowledged to have happened before.





Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Grasshopper - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 02:07 PM)Tim Wrote: ...no one can tell me anymore there is anything good which has ever come out of Germany.

Nothing religious, maybe, but other than that:

Bach
Beethoven
Einstein
Euler
Gauss
Goethe
Riemann
Wagner
etc.

I would say those people did some things that I would consider "good"...

...and if I were still into cars, I wouldn't mind having a BMW or a Porsche or a Mercedes-Benz.


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - OldMan - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 02:44 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: It sounds like they're doing the more somber "there was guilt on both sides" kind of joint commemoration, which is how Cardinal Koch explained it last year (rather than a joyful celebration--as he said, "We cannot celebrate a sin.") 
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/06/500-years-of-protestant-reformation-we.html

Before anyone gets mad about the "guilt on both sides" thing, we've seen in our time the sins of clergy provoke sins in others, so I don't see why it can't be acknowledged to have happened before.

Tell me what happened in 1517 that called for such an exodus from the Catholic Church, the Church founded by our Lord Himself? There was no reason, none whatsoever. Luther was a vile human being.


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - SaintSebastian - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 03:01 PM)OldMan Wrote: Tell me what happened in 1517 that called for such an exodus from the Catholic Church, the Church founded by our Lord Himself? There was no reason, none whatsoever. Luther was a vile human being.

The sins on both sides means that the leaving was a sin as well--it wasn't justified, but it seems it was provoked by the sins of clergy according to St. Vincent de Paul (which is why he originally founded the Congregation of the Mission for the reform of priests; their focus shifted to the poor due to the sharp increase in destitute due to the religious wars):

St. Vincent de Paul Wrote:"Ah! Gentleman, and my brethren, how earnestly should we pray to God for that spirit, and make some effort to meet the needs of the Church, which is being ruined in many places by the evil conduct of her priests, for it is they who are ruining and destroying her; and it is only too true that the depravity of the ecclesiastical state is the chief cause of the ruin of God's Church...So it is we priests, then, yes, we priests who are the cause of the scourge which is ravaging the Church, of the deplorable losses she is suffering in so many places; for she has been almost entirely ruined in Asia and Africa, and in a great number of places in Europe, such as Sweden, Denmark, England, Scotland, Ireland, Holland, and the United Provinces, as well as in a great part of Germany. And how many heretics may we not see in France! And now look at Poland, which, already deeply infected with heresy, is at this very moment in danger of being entirely lost to our holy religion by the invasion of the King of Sweden! Does it not seem, Gentlemen, as if God intends to transfer His Church to other lands? Yes, if we do not change, it is to be feared that God may remove her entirely from our midst."

Conference 141


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Basilios - 06-17-2013

If it's true that Luther repented on his death bed, he may be in Heaven now thinking to himself "Oh goodness..."


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Philosoraptor - 06-17-2013

I don't see why this is so awful. Ecclesiastical discipline in the early 16th century was awful, the sale of indulgences had gotten far out of hand, and reform was desperately needed. Most, if not all, of Luther's 95 Theses are solidly orthodox.

Luther rapidly turned into a dreadful heretic, but he was spot on the beginning. It's not heresy to point that out. The Church hierarchy was wrongfully reluctant to hear him inititally, which helped harden him in his error. It's not heresy to point this out either.

To mark the date of the Protestant Deformation in a spirit of somber penance seems entirely fitting. Whether it will bear fruit in many Lutherans returning to their Holy Mother - I cannot say. Nevertheless: Ut Unam Sint.


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - formerbuddhist - 06-17-2013

The official stance of the Church today actually is more of a pluralistic one with some sort of undefined ecumenical convergence as the hoped for goal rather than anathemas and conversions. Even Pope Benedict when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger in his book Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith: The Church as Communion sorry of implies through his use of Soloviev's story about the antichrist that there are indeed true Christians in ,protestantism orthodoxy and catholicism. The lines have been blurred, protestants aren't really even considered heretics anymore.


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Doce Me - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 02:48 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 02:07 PM)Tim Wrote: ...no one can tell me anymore there is anything good which has ever come out of Germany.

Nothing religious, maybe, but other than that:

Bach
Beethoven
Einstein
Euler
Gauss
Goethe
Riemann
Wagner
etc.

I would say those people did some things that I would consider "good"...

...and if I were still into cars, I wouldn't mind having a BMW or a Porsche or a Mercedes-Benz.

St. Boniface
St. Hildegard of Bingen
Pope St. Leo IX
St. Ursula
..and many others  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:German_Roman_Catholic_saints

Not me (I have partly German roots)

Definitely not Luther.



Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Parmandur - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 05:05 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 02:48 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 02:07 PM)Tim Wrote: ...no one can tell me anymore there is anything good which has ever come out of Germany.

Nothing religious, maybe, but other than that:

Bach
Beethoven
Einstein
Euler
Gauss
Goethe
Riemann
Wagner
etc.

I would say those people did some things that I would consider "good"...

...and if I were still into cars, I wouldn't mind having a BMW or a Porsche or a Mercedes-Benz.

St. Boniface
St. Hildegard of Bingen
Pope St. Leo IX
St. Ursula
..and many others  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:German_Roman_Catholic_saints

Not me (I have partly German roots)

Definitely not Luther.

Definitely agree with the gist here, but St. Boniface was actually English; he was in Germany as a missionary.


Re: Catholics and lutherans jointly mark reformation anniversary. YAY!! - Tim - 06-17-2013

(06-17-2013, 02:48 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 02:07 PM)Tim Wrote: ...no one can tell me anymore there is anything good which has ever come out of Germany.

Nothing religious, maybe, but other than that:

Bach
Beethoven
Einstein
Euler
Gauss
Goethe
Riemann
Wagner
etc.

I would say those people did some things that I would consider "good"...

...and if I were still into cars, I wouldn't mind having a BMW or a Porsche or a Mercedes-Benz.

First it was hyperbole. Second all German music I dislike but that's taste, in fact most classical, and I did like Gauss on magnetism, as well Riemann's non Euclidean geometry.

tim