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Re: What species orientation are you? - Melkite - 08-04-2013

(08-03-2013, 11:19 PM)Doce Me Wrote: I don't think we should change the phrase "same-sex attraction" to "same-sex orientation" (SSA to SSO)  Just saying "attraction" seems to be less subject to the idea that not only is it an attraction but a acceptable tendency that is built-in to the depths of our very nature. It's not a disorder like a hand with 6 fingers; it is in opposition to God's creation of both Adam and Eve.

"Orientation" is so commonly used by pro-gay liberals that it worries me.
I do understand that sometimes we have to talk their language, but maybe that shouldn't be taken for granted.

So the word "orientation" doesn't totally bother me, but I think I somewhat understand Basilios' point of view.

I have been considering the possibility of a same-sex social orientation for some time, so hopefully sso is not out, at least not immediately.  I think there is some pretty strong evidence to suggest that some people are oriented relationally to their own sex rather than the other.  Take two heterosexual men, one will tell you he is better at being friends with other men than with women, the other will tell you not only is he better at being friends with women, he has no real inclination to have male friends at all.  Some men don't want other men in their life, others thrive on their 'buddy time'.  I think there is a real same-sex oriented phenomena (check out adelphopoeisis without the gay activist agenda's interpretation of it) that is healthy and God ordained, that because of the fall has been twisted into a desire to copulate with one's own sex.  I think most homosexuals would be such men in a world that had not fallen.


Re: What species orientation are you? - guacamole - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 12:40 AM)Melkite Wrote: I think there is a real same-sex oriented phenomena (check out adelphopoeisis without the gay activist agenda's interpretation of it) that is healthy and God ordained, that because of the fall has been twisted into a desire to copulate with one's own sex.  I think most homosexuals would be such men in a world that had not fallen.

doubtful, melkite.  most gay men were feminine boys.  many preferred girls as playmates.  the kind of men you're talking about were not like that.  they just like doing guy things with other guys.  women are for sex as far as they're concerned.


Re: What species orientation are you? - 2Vermont - 08-04-2013

(08-03-2013, 11:19 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(08-03-2013, 08:04 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(08-03-2013, 04:16 PM)Basilios Wrote: If 'homosexual orientation' = psychological perversion then it's okay to use the phrase.

Homosexual orientation means homosexual orientation, that is, a sexual orientation toward those of the same sex. We Catholics know it's a disorder. Some folks might not think it is. But the phrase means what it says and that's all it means.

I agree, up to a point.  I think homosexual orientation IS a kind of psychological perversion (as we agree), but the word orientation can be taken to just mean attraction or inclination to something; in this case it is something perverse, but it is still orientation. However, I understand that sometimes people (stupid people, perhaps) take the word orientation to mean one choice among many equal things (a natural tendency God might give us, even if there were no original sin, towards one of many equal things).

I don't think we should change the phrase "same-sex attraction" to "same-sex orientation" (SSA to SSO)  Just saying "attraction" seems to be less subject to the idea that not only is it an attraction but a acceptable tendency that is built-in to the depths of our very nature. It's not a disorder like a hand with 6 fingers; it is in opposition to God's creation of both Adam and Eve.

"Orientation" is so commonly used by pro-gay liberals that it worries me.
I do understand that sometimes we have to talk their language, but maybe that shouldn't be taken for granted.

So the word "orientation" doesn't totally bother me, but I think I somewhat understand Basilios' point of view.

Yes!  Although the Catechism follows up by saying it is disordered, the use of the term orientation definitely comes across as an acceptable tendency built in to our nature. That is why it seems to some as if the catechism is saying that they were born that way. It also makes it seem as if this tendency is unlike all other tendencies to sin...a special status of sorts. 

Giving homosexuality a special status just doesn't sit right with me given the issues in the Church with the gay lobby, gay priests, etc.  It might be high time for the Church to make a strong, CLEAR (cough-cough) statement/encyclical about its teaching on homosexuality.  It should incorporate Scripture passages I offered in the other thread and how such strong biblical language fits into Church teaching.  It should also make CLEAR (cough-cough) how the teaching fits into the TRADITIONAL (cough-cough) teaching, attitudes and beliefs towards homosexuality.

Because with recent comments by the Pope about not judging, gay priests, gay lobby, etc, etc, no one really knows what the heck the deal is anymore.


Re: What species orientation are you? - Melkite - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 08:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Yes!  Although the Catechism follows up by saying it is disordered, the use of the term orientation definitely comes across as an acceptable tendency built in to our nature. That is why it seems to some as if the catechism is saying that they were born that way. It also makes it seem as if this tendency is unlike all other tendencies to sin...a special status of sorts. 

Giving homosexuality a special status just doesn't sit right with me given the issues in the Church with the gay lobby, gay priests, etc.  It might be high time for the Church to make a strong, CLEAR (cough-cough) statement/encyclical about its teaching on homosexuality.  It should incorporate Scripture passages I offered in the other thread and how such strong biblical language fits into Church teaching.  It should also make CLEAR (cough-cough) how the teaching fits into the TRADITIONAL (cough-cough) teaching, attitudes and beliefs towards homosexuality.

Because with recent comments by the Pope about not judging, gay priests, gay lobby, etc, etc, no one really knows what the heck the deal is anymore.

I'm not so sure the catechism is giving it special status as it is people giving it special status by paying inordinately more attention to it than other sins.  How many Catholics, honestly, are out protesting adultery or masturbation?  How many Catholics stand outside pornography studios to pelt the actors and producers with rotten tomatoes?  Frankly, the ordinary Catholic dismisses heterosexual sin in a way it refuses to do with homosexual sin, because for many they feel they are justified in hating homosexuals because of how disgusting they find it and them.  They clearly have no intent or desire to separate sinner from sin in their minds.  The Church in its catechesis had to respond, not because it was singling it out for special status, but because so many people already have singled it out with special status as a sin above all other sins.


Re: What species orientation are you? - JayneK - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 08:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Because with recent comments by the Pope about not judging, gay priests, gay lobby, etc, etc, no one really knows what the heck the deal is anymore.

I have no difficulty knowing "what the deal is" about homosexuality.  As far as I can tell, the Cathechism is both clear and consistent with previous Catholic teaching.  Also everything that the pope has said and done is consistent with the Catechism and previous teaching.  There are people who would like Catholic teaching to be different from what it is, so they keep on distorting this teaching and putting spin on the pope's words.  All you have to do is ignore them, and there is no problem at all seeing the truth.

Also this thread needs a picture.
[Image: vn09bm.jpg]


Re: What species orientation are you? - Melkite - 08-04-2013

A picture of the cat nuns from Dr. Who would be great to merge this thread with the one about the daughters of vengeance!


Re: What species orientation are you? - 2Vermont - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 09:51 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-04-2013, 08:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Because with recent comments by the Pope about not judging, gay priests, gay lobby, etc, etc, no one really knows what the heck the deal is anymore.

I have no difficulty knowing "what the deal is" about homosexuality.  As far as I can tell, the Cathechism is both clear and consistent with previous Catholic teaching.  Also everything that the pope has said and done is consistent with the Catechism and previous teaching.  There are people who would like Catholic teaching to be different from what it is, so they keep on distorting this teaching and putting spin on the pope's words.  All you have to do is ignore them, and there is no problem at all seeing the truth.

Also this thread needs a picture.
[Image: vn09bm.jpg]

With all due respect, that's great if you seem to think that the teaching and the Pope's actions are clear and that both are consistent with previous teaching.  I used to blame it on the media and "those other people" also.  I do not anymore.  As do a lot of other people.


Re: What species orientation are you? - 2Vermont - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 09:46 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-04-2013, 08:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Yes!  Although the Catechism follows up by saying it is disordered, the use of the term orientation definitely comes across as an acceptable tendency built in to our nature. That is why it seems to some as if the catechism is saying that they were born that way. It also makes it seem as if this tendency is unlike all other tendencies to sin...a special status of sorts. 

Giving homosexuality a special status just doesn't sit right with me given the issues in the Church with the gay lobby, gay priests, etc.  It might be high time for the Church to make a strong, CLEAR (cough-cough) statement/encyclical about its teaching on homosexuality.  It should incorporate Scripture passages I offered in the other thread and how such strong biblical language fits into Church teaching.  It should also make CLEAR (cough-cough) how the teaching fits into the TRADITIONAL (cough-cough) teaching, attitudes and beliefs towards homosexuality.

Because with recent comments by the Pope about not judging, gay priests, gay lobby, etc, etc, no one really knows what the heck the deal is anymore.

I'm not so sure the catechism is giving it special status as it is people giving it special status by paying inordinately more attention to it than other sins.  How many Catholics, honestly, are out protesting adultery or masturbation?  How many Catholics stand outside pornography studios to pelt the actors and producers with rotten tomatoes?  Frankly, the ordinary Catholic dismisses heterosexual sin in a way it refuses to do with homosexual sin, because for many they feel they are justified in hating homosexuals because of how disgusting they find it and them.  They clearly have no intent or desire to separate sinner from sin in their minds.  The Church in its catechesis had to respond, not because it was singling it out for special status, but because so many people already have singled it out with special status as a sin above all other sins.

At the time the Church updated its teaching with the use of the word "orientation", homosexuality was not in the news or a major topic/concern among Catholics.  So forgive me for not buying into that line of reasoning.


Re: What species orientation are you? - Melkite - 08-04-2013

(08-04-2013, 10:01 AM)2Vermont Wrote: At the time the Church updated its teaching with the use of the word "orientation", homosexuality was not in the news or a major topic/concern among Catholics.  So forgive me for not buying into that line of reasoning.

The catechism which uses the term orientation was published in 1992.  Of course it was in the news and a major topic at that time.  Besides, homosexuals were being beaten and murdered long before it became a topic of the general public. 

Violence against homosexuals did not come about because homosexuality was being talked about more and approved by society.  It was being talked about more and approved by society because of the violence perpetrated against homosexuals.  You have your chronology mixed up.


Re: What species orientation are you? - In nomine Patris - 08-04-2013

How did this turn into a homosexual discussion, it was not started that way. For being 2-4% of the population they sure make a lot of noise. To damn much in fact.