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I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Printable Version

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Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-17-2013

(08-17-2013, 09:32 PM)lumine Wrote:
(08-17-2013, 08:22 PM)JMartyr Wrote:
(08-17-2013, 12:35 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: By "slipped through" I imagine the poster above is referring to it showing up on EWTN without being removed instantly by those who would prefer this information did not get to the average Catholic in the pews.  Since many Catholics view EWTN as a very authoritative source for information on the Church, it is much harder to dismiss things like this as the rantings of the "mad-trad" or "rad-trad" crowd, and they might actually be taken seriously and given the consideration they deserve. 

But of course, I could be wrong...  :) 
You could be wrong, but you are not.  :P

Well, thank you both for the clarification!

No worries. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - JoniCath - 08-18-2013

(08-17-2013, 03:18 PM)2Vermont Wrote: Anyway, this Cardinal should be named a saint.

Don't let the nitpicking bother you.

Cardinal Ottavianii was 63 yrs. in the priesthood. Scandalized by the reaction of his fellow Council Fathers, Ottaviani boycotted the next six council working sessions. When Cardinal Ernesto Ruffini of Palermo presided over the November 11 session he announced that "Ottaviani had been grieved by the Oct. 30 incident" and asked Council Fathers to refrain from voicing approval or disapproval with applause. This was a grievous insult to a holy man & it hurt him deeply.

There is absolutely NO excuse for that kind of behavior & at a Vatican Council??? Cardinal Ottaviani tried his best to save the TLM.,. he was ridiculed & hurt because he did. This was one of the first sour fruits of the council. Then followed:

**A Mass written by a freemason whose main purpose was to make it "palatable" to Protestants.
**A huge exodus of faithful priests & nuns.
**Poor Mass attendance.
**A dumbing down, not only of the Mass, but of our faith.
**Our Holy Mother was relegated to the dust bin, because our "separated brethren" were not comfortable with our devotion to her. That makes me so sad & I try my    best to make it up to her. She suffered so, watching what they did to her Son. (Look up Father Rahner's statement about the Marion Schema & you'll see what I mean.
**At least one third of our clergy are homosexual.
**Our pubescent & post pubescent boys were sodomized.,
**The blending of the ordained priesthood with the laity!

The fruits of the council are rotten to the core.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 12:59 AM)JoniCath Wrote:
(08-17-2013, 03:18 PM)2Vermont Wrote: Anyway, this Cardinal should be named a saint.

Don't let the nitpicking bother you.

Cardinal Ottavianii was 63 yrs. in the priesthood. Scandalized by the reaction of his fellow Council Fathers, Ottaviani boycotted the next six council working sessions. When Cardinal Ernesto Ruffini of Palermo presided over the November 11 session he announced that "Ottaviani had been grieved by the Oct. 30 incident" and asked Council Fathers to refrain from voicing approval or disapproval with applause. This was a grievous insult to a holy man & it hurt him deeply.

There is absolutely NO excuse for that kind of behavior & at a Vatican Council??? Cardinal Ottaviani tried his best to save the TLM.,. he was ridiculed & hurt because he did. This was one of the first sour fruits of the council. Then followed:

**A Mass written by a freemason whose main purpose was to make it "palatable" to Protestants.
**A huge exodus of faithful priests & nuns.
**Poor Mass attendance.
**A dumbing down, not only of the Mass, but of our faith.
**Our Holy Mother was relegated to the dust bin, because our "separated brethren" were not comfortable with our devotion to her. That makes me so sad & I try my    best to make it up to her. She suffered so, watching what they did to her Son. (Look up Father Rahner's statement about the Marion Schema & you'll see what I mean.
**At least one third of our clergy are homosexual.
**Our pubescent & post pubescent boys were sodomized.,
**The blending of the ordained priesthood with the laity!

The fruits of the council are rotten to the core.

I guess they were applauding because they stopped him from talking.  I wasn't sure.  Disgusting.  And it also shows that most of the hierarchy agreed to all of this.  We're in a lot more trouble than we think.

Wrt to your list?  Cardinal Ottavani was prophetic indeed.

This letter is the nail in the NO coffin for me.  I will never set foot in another NO mass again (even if that means not going to Church on Sunday).  I wouldn't go to a Protestant church to fulfill my Sunday obligation, why would I go to this farce?


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Basilios - 08-18-2013

2Vermont:

Do you believe that the Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation for Catholics?


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 07:02 AM)Basilios Wrote: 2Vermont:

Do you believe that the Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation for Catholics?

Right now?  No. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Basilios - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 07:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Right now?  No. 

Okay. So why does the Catholic Church teach that it does? If it indeed doesn't, then 98% of Catholics are committing mortal sins on Sunday by not only not fulfilling their obligation but also participating in non-Catholic worship (as you claim, it is Protestant). In which case, the Church commands sin and has lost her mission completely. But if you deny that these people are sinning because they don't know that they aren't fulfilling their obligation, then you are going into some kind of Gnosticism where in order  to truly worship you must know the 'secret' knowledge of the Novus Ordo Missae.

Further, the Church has the keys. You might, like I, think that the NO Missal is absolutely horrendous as a Rite, but the fact is that the subjective and even objective judgement of the Ritual doesn't even affect the obligaton to fulfill the Sunday obligaton (which is related to the Third Commandment). The ritualistic elements are things that are in degrees; the obligaton is not. In other words - the rituals themselves can be of more or less value and aesthetic quality etc. They are contingent. But the obligaton is not more or less or contingent. The obligation is either fulfilled or it isn't. The Church claims that the new Mass fulfills this obligation - in the very self same way that it claims (even before the new Mass ever existed) that if you are unable to get to Mass you fulfill your obligation by (for example) saying certain prayers and avoiding certain things on that day. Does this make sense?

And on a last note, the Ottaviani Intervention is absolutely fantastic and good to know - but the caveat is that the Mass he witnessed when he wrote that is not the Novus Ordo you witness today (as far as the Missal itself I mean, if Priests are saying it properly).

I'm sorry 2Vermont, but I have to let you know that if you take this upon yourself you will be committing a mortal sin every time you miss Mass. You simply cannot judge yourself in this case to be able to not attend the NO. Trust me I hate the Rite just as much as the next trad. But this isn't your call. You are not the competent authority for your soul in this area. Everybody favours their own whims and this is just one of yours.  If you truly mean what you say, you are acting under the guidance of the devil based on an (understandable) emotional response to shocking revelations about the Novus Ordo Mass.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way at all. Please don't. I'm really just concerned. I hate this crisis I really do. It puts us all down and makes people have to choose and think things that they shouldn't ever worry about. But please, don't miss your Sunday obligation. Do what I do for peace sake and just sit in the back, pray a Rosary and tell God that you really want a TLM for every Sunday and wish that this crisis were over!

God Bless +


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 07:18 AM)Basilios Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 07:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote: Right now?  No. 

Okay. So why does the Catholic Church teach that it does? If it indeed doesn't, then 98% of Catholics are committing mortal sins on Sunday by not only not fulfilling their obligation but also participating in non-Catholic worship (as you claim, it is Protestant). In which case, the Church commands sin and has lost her mission completely. But if you deny that these people are sinning because they don't know that they aren't fulfilling their obligation, then you are going into some kind of Gnosticism where in order  to truly worship you must know the 'secret' knowledge of the Novus Ordo Missae.

Further, the Church has the keys. You might, like I, think that the NO Missal is absolutely horrendous as a Rite, but the fact is that the subjective and even objective judgement of the Ritual doesn't even affect the obligaton to fulfill the Sunday obligaton (which is related to the Third Commandment). The ritualistic elements are things that are in degrees; the obligaton is not. In other words - the rituals themselves can be of more or less value and aesthetic quality etc. They are contingent. But the obligaton is not more or less or contingent. The obligation is either fulfilled or it isn't. The Church claims that the new Mass fulfills this obligation - in the very self same way that it claims (even before the new Mass ever existed) that if you are unable to get to Mass you fulfill your obligation by (for example) saying certain prayers and avoiding certain things on that day. Does this make sense?

And on a last note, the Ottaviani Intervention is absolutely fantastic and good to know - but the caveat is that the Mass he witnessed when he wrote that is not the Novus Ordo you witness today (as far as the Missal itself I mean, if Priests are saying it properly).

I'm sorry 2Vermont, but I have to let you know that if you take this upon yourself you will be committing a mortal sin every time you miss Mass. You simply cannot judge yourself in this case to be able to not attend the NO. Trust me I hate the Rite just as much as the next trad. But this isn't your call. You are not the competent authority for your soul in this area. Everybody favours their own whims and this is just one of yours.  If you truly mean what you say, you are acting under the guidance of the devil based on an (understandable) emotional response to shocking revelations about the Novus Ordo Mass.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way at all. Please don't. I'm really just concerned. I hate this crisis I really do. It puts us all down and makes people have to choose and think things that they shouldn't ever worry about. But please, don't miss your Sunday obligation. Do what I do for peace sake and just sit in the back, pray a Rosary and tell God that you really want a TLM for every Sunday and wish that this crisis were over!

God Bless +

I will read this more closely, but I was going to go and modify my other post.  I have serious doubts about the validity of the NO.  And, I have learned that if one has doubts about the validity of a sacrament one must not go.  I believe this is something Innocent XI said.
Trust me, I don't like it but I am having a very hard time believing that NO is the work of God's hands lately. 



Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 07:26 AM)2Vermont Wrote: I will read this more closely, but I was going to go and modify my other post.  I have serious doubts about the validity of the NO.  And, I have learned that if one has doubts about the validity of a sacrament one must not go.  I believe this is something Innocent XI said.
Trust me, I don't like it but I am having a very hard time believing that NO is the work of God's hands lately. 

You are treading down a very dangerous path and in doing so, you are putting your soul in danger.  I am frustrated by many aspects of the NO also, but to doubt its validity is something I will not do.  Prudence?  Yep.  The manner in which it is often celebrated?  Most definitely.  Validity?  No. 

I told you before that you wouldn't have to read between the lines to tell whether or not I thought you were doing too far with something.  Well, you are. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 08:33 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 07:26 AM)2Vermont Wrote: I will read this more closely, but I was going to go and modify my other post.  I have serious doubts about the validity of the NO.  And, I have learned that if one has doubts about the validity of a sacrament one must not go.  I believe this is something Innocent XI said.
Trust me, I don't like it but I am having a very hard time believing that NO is the work of God's hands lately. 

You are treading down a very dangerous path and in doing so, you are putting your soul in danger.  I am frustrated by many aspects of the NO also, but to doubt its validity is something I will not do.  Prudence?  Yep.  The manner in which it is often celebrated?  Most definitely.  Validity?  No. 

I told you before that you wouldn't have to read between the lines to tell whether or not I thought you were doing too far with something.  Well, you are. 

I used to feel that way too.  Like I said, I don't feel good about this but it seems to me that even Cardinal Ottavani questioned it.  Logically (not feelings) I just don't see how something that is a "striking departure" from the Catholic Faith can still be "of" the Catholic Faith.  Someone explain to me the logic there because I just don't see it.  Perhaps it is valid, but I believe it is schismatic.  And I can't go to an Orthodox Church to fulfill my Sunday obligation, so I see no difference here. 

Many of you have the TLM every week.  I do not. It's easy to tell someone who doesn't have access to the TLM that I should go to the NO no matter. 

I know that I can be wrong and I wrestle with it.  Just pray for me and my husband.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Miriam_M - 08-18-2013

(08-18-2013, 07:18 AM)Basilios Wrote: So why does the Catholic Church teach that it does? If it indeed doesn't, then 98% of Catholics are committing mortal sins on Sunday by not only not fulfilling their obligation but also participating in non-Catholic worship (as you claim, it is Protestant). In which case, the Church commands sin and has lost her mission completely. But if you deny that these people are sinning because they don't know that they aren't fulfilling their obligation, then you are going into some kind of Gnosticism where in order  to truly worship you must know the 'secret' knowledge of the Novus Ordo Missae.

No, that wouldn't be the reason they are not sinning.  The simple factor is the absence of sincere belief -- not just "knowledge" -- that one is sinning.  Millions of poorly catechized Catholics engage in grave matter of all kinds, 7 days a week, because of not-so-secret-knowledge which has not been, or is not being, shared with them in the regular course of their "observance" of the faith.  Not just are they granted tacit permission to engage in grave matter, they are often given explicit permission by priests to do so, or are not corrected when they proclaim that they are doing or will do such-and-such, and/or such grave matter is modeled for them by members of clergy and/or religious.

The majority of the laity believes that they are not sinning by attending the N.O. Mass -- including if that's a clown Mass or other less egregiously irreverent but otherwise sloppy excuse for a Mass.  And overwhelmingly, they are not given alternatives, which would tend to confirm for them that what is available is acceptable.  Therefore, they are not sinning.  Most have a sincerity of obedience and knowledge, both, meaning they are not sinning. 

As to the "Protestant" part:  again, that is what has been taught to them:  That Catholic liturgy is "fellowship" and "community" and hand-holding and all matter of social conversation in the nave of the Church, but with a valid Eucharist tacked on.

I will go further.  Given various misleading information on various websites, many Catholics believe that to attend a TLM is a sin.