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I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Printable Version

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Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 02:30 AM)JoniCath Wrote: Validity has nothing to do with my reason for boycotting the NO.  IMO. This Mass has done great harm to my Church & I cannot go on any longer,  enabling it. I don't believe that it is the work of God.

But this is the struggle I have.  If we question whether it is the work of God, then aren't we questioning its validity implicitly? 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Basilios - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 08:02 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 02:30 AM)JoniCath Wrote: Validity has nothing to do with my reason for boycotting the NO.  IMO. This Mass has done great harm to my Church & I cannot go on any longer,  enabling it. I don't believe that it is the work of God.

But this is the struggle I have.  If we question whether it is the work of God, then aren't we questioning its validity implicitly? 

Just like I said earlier. Validity and the other ritualistic elements are separate. The validity is down to the consecration and that's it. Since the new mass has valid words for consecration it is a valid mass. The rubrics and organization of the ritual might be horrible as I agree but the Mass is valid, and the Catholic Church demands we attend a valid Catholic Mass on Sundays and holy days.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 08:06 AM)Basilios Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 08:02 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 02:30 AM)JoniCath Wrote: Validity has nothing to do with my reason for boycotting the NO.  IMO. This Mass has done great harm to my Church & I cannot go on any longer,  enabling it. I don't believe that it is the work of God.

But this is the struggle I have.  If we question whether it is the work of God, then aren't we questioning its validity implicitly? 

Just like I said earlier. Validity and the other ritualistic elements are separate. The validity is down to the consecration and that's it. Since the new mass has valid words for consecration it is a valid mass. The rubrics and organization of the ritual might be horrible as I agree but the Mass is valid, and the Catholic Church demands we attend a valid Catholic Mass on Sundays and holy days.

Validity involves form, matter and intention.  The form was changed in the vernacular ("for the many" to "for all") and then later revised...but only recently.  Why did  the Catholic Church even think of changing the words at the very beginning (and allow it to remain that way for 50 years)? It seems to me that the intention was to change the form from what it was for 1500 years prior despite the fact that St Pius V said not to do it.  I have a problem with just saying "Oh, that was an "oopsie" let's forget that it ever happened in the first place and was allowed to continue for decades."

It's the same question I have for all of the major changes in the sacraments....WHY??? 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Basilios - 08-19-2013

The for many for all thing is troubling but it's a matter of opinion whether or not the first part or the whole part of the words are needed to consecrate the precious blood. And by opinion I mean amongst theolgians not you and me. But it's a moot point because as you say the English translation has changed.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-19-2013

I also just want to apologize to Sant Anselmo and Basilios regarding my assumption that most here have access to the TLM.  I did not realize you guys didn't.  I definitely get the impression that lots of folks do but maybe I'm totally wrong about that.

Anyway, mea culpa.  And I know you guys mean well and are looking out for me. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Gidge - 08-19-2013

(08-17-2013, 10:09 AM)2Vermont Wrote: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/REFORMOF.HTM

You all have probably known about this, but I am just finding this letter by Cardinal Ottaviani to Paul VI regarding the New Mass.

WOW.


Edited by Vox to hook up link and to remove ALL CAPS in subject line

If you want to see WOW go post this over at CAF, and say you agree with it, you'll get an infraction in a NY minute !  :LOL:



Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - JoniCath - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 03:01 AM)Basilios Wrote: Aquinas also had a thing for order and h hierarchy. Your still little voice is below the big loud voice of the Catholic Church which says that you must attend any valid Catholic mass in order to fulfil your obligation. This ain't something you can dispense yourself from. If you think you can, you're inverting the hierarchy of order by placing your conscience above church law. St Thomas would not approve.

“People are obliged to follow their conscience in all circumstances and cannot be forced to act against it.”

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) expressed the Church’s understanding of the primacy of conscience – an understanding which he eloquently expressed while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968.

[size=10pt]“Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority,” writes Ratzinger, “stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”[/size]

This has been Catholic teaching forever. The fact that people on Fisheaters do NOT know that\, is troubling.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

I am not one of those "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" people who accept mediocrity as good enough.  I think we should be working towards perfection, in the Mass, in our spiritual lives, etc.  However, the simple reality is that something does not have be invalid to give less than perfect fruits.  Is it as good as it could be and should be? No, I do not think so, and I believe that to be manifestly obvious to anyone who pays attention.  But that does not invalidate it either.  Imperfect contrition is not as good as perfect contrition and does not bear the same fruits.  However, imperfect contrition still allows us to go to confession and receive absolution and without it we cannot.  An imperfect Mass is not as edifying or fruitful as a perfect Mass, but it is still Mass and still allows us to receive the Eucharist. 

Also, understand that I am not talking about a Mass where the rubrics are not followed, or there is no intent of the part of the priest to consecrate the host.  In situations where there is disobedience or lack of intent on the part of the priest, I do believe that it is possible, strongly so, for the Mass to be invalid.  However, that is not what I am referring to.  I am referring to a Mass which is celebrated correctly, even not as perfectly in terms of Sacred Music, etc. as it could be, but with no actual liturgical abuses and proper intent. 

If you believe otherwise, then you need to get to a spiritual director that you trust, ASAP. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 10:36 AM)JoniCath Wrote: This has been Catholic teaching forever. The fact that people on Fisheaters do NOT know that\, is troubling.

The duty to properly form one's conscience with the mind of the Church has also been Catholic teaching forever.  This is not a case of invincible ignorance where one can follow an improperly formed conscience and not commit sin in the process.  She has been taught by the Church that the NO Mass is a valid Mass. 

We are not talking about some wishy-washy section in Vatican II that creates confusion, etc.  We are talking about the validity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  One can choose to believe that, while valid, the form of the Mass is not as perfect or as edifying as it could be.  However, deliberately choosing to follow an improperly formed conscience is not even remotely the same thing. 

The "conscience trumps all" argument, while not putting it in context with the rest of the Church's teaching on conscience, has been the go to move by Cafeteria Catholics the world over for the past 50 years.  The fact that some on Fish Eaters do not know that, or choose to ignore at as long as it moves someone towards tradition, is more than troubling.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 11:54 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

OK, so now your posts just seem rude with the sarcasm.