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I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Printable Version

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Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 12:37 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 11:54 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

OK, so now your posts just seem rude with the sarcasm.

I was not being sarcastic at all.  Not even in the slightest.  If you do not believe in the validity of the Mass. then you must believe at least the first point, and you have no legitimate reason to be concerned about the second two. 


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - 2Vermont - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 12:58 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 12:37 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 11:54 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

OK, so now your posts just seem rude with the sarcasm.

I was not being sarcastic at all.  Not even in the slightest.  If you do not believe in the validity of the Mass. then you must believe at least the first point, and you have no legitimate reason to be concerned about the second two. 

I have said that I question it.  You have gone out of your way to tell me off in so many words.  If that is not how you mean to come off then perhaps you could soften your comments to me.  Because you really aren't coming off anymore as someone who is concerned for me.

I get it.  You don't like the fact that I feel this way.  Yes, someone who used to never question it now questions it.  It is easier to get mad at that person than to get mad at why someone like me would even do such a thing.  Sounds like how I first reacted to my husband.  So, yeah, I get it.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Basilios - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 10:36 AM)JoniCath Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 03:01 AM)Basilios Wrote: Aquinas also had a thing for order and h hierarchy. Your still little voice is below the big loud voice of the Catholic Church which says that you must attend any valid Catholic mass in order to fulfil your obligation. This ain't something you can dispense yourself from. If you think you can, you're inverting the hierarchy of order by placing your conscience above church law. St Thomas would not approve.

“People are obliged to follow their conscience in all circumstances and cannot be forced to act against it.”

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) expressed the Church’s understanding of the primacy of conscience – an understanding which he eloquently expressed while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968.

[size=10pt]“Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority,” writes Ratzinger, “stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”[/size]

This has been Catholic teaching forever. The fact that people on Fisheaters do NOT know that\, is troubling.

Fortunately I am not one of those Fishies.

Where in that quote does Ratzinger claim that the binding authority of Church doctrine is above ones conscience? He only says that your conscience is above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority.

Surely you know that the above must be taken in context within a bigger picture?

What if I told you my conscience was okay with contracepting? Or aborting? Or, say, what if my conscience was okay with thinking that the 1962 Mass wasn't valid and it doesn't fulfill ones obligation?

You would rightly tell me my conscience is, in these circumstances, absolutely rotten and not working properly. It's disordered. It has lost it's place within the hierarchical order.

What if Jesus Christ came down (truly, not a false vision) and ordered me to do something, like, say, go to a Novus Ordo Mass to fulfil my obligation. What if I said "Na sorry about that but my conscience objects!". Is that good and proper? But doesn't the Church speak for Christ in these matters (ya know, binding and loosing etc)?

I think it's not me that has it backwards, Joni, it's you. I of course acknowledge and affirm the teachings on obeying ones conscience. But it must operate witihn proper order. And dispensing yourself from Mass because you read the Ottaviani intervention or because you subjectively judge that this Mass brought down the Church isn't your conscience working within proper order.

There are Catholic Africans being murdered every single day in Somalia, Egypt and the rest of that region. Those people would, and do, die just to attend the Mass. And here we have people dispensing themselves? If I didn't think it were such a bad idea I wouldn't push it but I think this is vitally important. I don't want you or anybody else to pay for it on judgement day. Especially not with these holy martyrs sitting and telling you how much they suffered just to get to one of those types of Masses you decided on your own whim wasn't good enough.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Melchior - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:19 PM)Basilios Wrote: There are Catholic Africans being murdered every single day in Somalia, Egypt and the rest of that region. Those people would, and do, die just to attend the Mass. And here we have people dispensing themselves? If I didn't think it were such a bad idea I wouldn't push it but I think this is vitally important. I don't want you or anybody else to pay for it on judgement day. Especially not with these holy martyrs sitting and telling you how much they suffered just to get to one of those types of Masses you decided on your own whim wasn't good enough.

Very, very powerful section here.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:03 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 12:58 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 12:37 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 11:54 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

OK, so now your posts just seem rude with the sarcasm.

I was not being sarcastic at all.  Not even in the slightest.  If you do not believe in the validity of the Mass. then you must believe at least the first point, and you have no legitimate reason to be concerned about the second two. 

I have said that I question it.  You have gone out of your way to tell me off in so many words.  If that is not how you mean to come off then perhaps you could soften your comments to me.  Because you really aren't coming off anymore as someone who is concerned for me.

I get it.  You don't like the fact that I feel this way.  Yes, someone who used to never question it now questions it.  It is easier to get mad at that person than to get mad at why someone like me would even do such a thing.  Sounds like how I first reacted to my husband.  So, yeah, I get it.

I have gone out of my way to make actual points and debate your responses to them, rather than debating you as a person.  I have not gotten mad at you, or told you off.  I have proposed arguments, to which you then responded, and I then debated your responses to them.  I have done this through use of a classical "if - then" logic statement.  I have repeatedly said that "in order to believe X, you must also believe Y".  The only person bringing emotion into the discussion between the two of us is you. 

In addition, whether you have gotten to the point that you disbelieve in the validity of the NO Mass is not the point that I have been making at all.  Rather, my point is that you should consider the intellectual leap that you must make in order for you to actually come to that belief.  For someone to believe that the Mass of Paul VI is invalid, they must also believe that millions of Catholics have not really been receiving the Eucharist since its promulgation.  There is no way around this.  The only way for you to come to the first conclusion is if you also accept the second.  If you cannot accept the second, then you cannot accept the first either as they must go together.  The "if-then" logic statement is a simple and effective way to help determine whether you really believe what you think you might. 

If you cannot accept the second conclusion intellectually, then it is probable that you do actually believe in the validity of the Mass, and are instead very frustrated that it is not as edifying as it could and should be, or perhaps just very disappointed with the manner that it is often celebrated. 

There is a stark difference between going after you as a person and going after the arguments made by you in the manner that I did.  I hope that this has helped to demonstrate the difference between that and I what I was trying to do. 


*EDIT - Confusing statement *


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - guacamole - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:45 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: I can provide an example of what attacking you as a person instead of your argument looks like, but I would very much prefer not to as that is not something I enjoy doing, particularly with people of good will, as I believe you to be.

sorry, but that's just lousy.  :eyeroll:


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:51 PM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:45 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: I can provide an example of what attacking you as a person instead of your argument looks like, but I would very much prefer not to as that is not something I enjoy doing, particularly with people of good will, as I believe you to be.

sorry, but that's just lousy.  :eyeroll:

Its somehow wrong that I would prefer not to attack a person, in particular people that I believe are of good will?



Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - guacamole - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:54 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:51 PM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:45 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: I can provide an example of what attacking you as a person instead of your argument looks like, but I would very much prefer not to as that is not something I enjoy doing, particularly with people of good will, as I believe you to be.

sorry, but that's just lousy.  :eyeroll:

Its somehow wrong that I would prefer not to attack a person, in particular people that I believe are of good will?

it was your implied threat, of course.  and your supercilious attitude.  it reeks.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - DustinsDad - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 12:58 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 12:37 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 11:54 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-18-2013, 05:36 PM)2Vermont Wrote: You know, I'm not sure these are the only possibilities.  I haven't considered it long enough.  But I will say that I find it hard to believe that after seeing 50 years of the fruits of this mass that anyone can believe that it is of God. 

So millions of Catholics have been unknowingly worshiping mere bread and wine every time they have gone to Mass or Eucharistic Adoration for the past 50 years?  There is no reason to get upset about EMHC's or treating the Eucharist with disrespect because hey, it isn't Jesus anyway right?   Those pictures of the Eucharist being passed around in a plastic cup at WYD are ultimately meaningless since it wasn't a valid Mass in the first place.   

OK, so now your posts just seem rude with the sarcasm.

I was not being sarcastic at all.  Not even in the slightest.  If you do not believe in the validity of the Mass. then you must believe at least the first point, and you have no legitimate reason to be concerned about the second two. 

Slightly related ... growing up I was at alot of masses where the matter used invalidated the Secret...bread mixed with honey and other things. I learned later that these additives made the matter for the Sacrament invalid...so no consecration and no Real Presence. I was born in 69, and on 70s and 80s, this was rampant in the US. Might still be in N.O. circles.

So what I'm saying is the notion that alot of people are not really worshipping and receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist isn't so crazy as ya might think.


Re: I'm first finding this: Letter on Novus Ordo Missae - Sant Anselmo - 08-19-2013

(08-19-2013, 01:56 PM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:54 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:51 PM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 01:45 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: I can provide an example of what attacking you as a person instead of your argument looks like, but I would very much prefer not to as that is not something I enjoy doing, particularly with people of good will, as I believe you to be.

sorry, but that's just lousy.  :eyeroll:

Its somehow wrong that I would prefer not to attack a person, in particular people that I believe are of good will?

it was your implied threat, of course.  and your supercilious attitude.  it reeks.

It was not a threat at all, or at least it was not intended to be.  Everyone single person here is capable of attacking the person rather than the argument should they choose to.  I choose not to with her for a variety of reasons.  Chief among them as that I really do believe that she is a person of good will.  In addition, 2Vermont and I have a history that goes back a while, back to when we were on CAF and were trads together getting attacked on all sides by liberal and modernist Catholics who went out of their way twist everything we said.  We have had many conversations, very good conversations between us, during that time and I have prayed for her consistently and I am confident that she has prayed for me as well.  My intent was to help her understand the difference, not threaten her.  I know that she is frustrated by things, but I also know that she is smart enough to view my comments in the context of our history and judge them in that way.  I am also aware of conversation that we have had between us in private, where I have assured her that if I have a problem with her as a person, I will let her know directly.  I trust that 2Vermont remembers that and will see my larger points.   

However, since it is obvious that this statement can be taken the wrong way, I am happy to go back and amend it. 


You on the other hand are a different story.  First of all, you don't know a damn thing about me or my motivations for saying anything, so you only make yourself look like an idiot when you talk about them.  Secondly, and more broadly, you have added little if anything since you showed up on this forum outside of you chiding people to be nice and get along.  I do not believe you to be a person of good will.  You repeatedly behave like a pollyanna-ish bliss ninny with a strong dose of holier than thou thrown in to boot.  Your track record of jumping into the middle of conversations which have a long history that you know nothing about is annoying, and your go to move of chiding people and telling everyone to be nice, suggests you to be little more than a troll with no intent in having serious conversations on the Faith, or no capability to do so.  In short, you are pretty much wasting everyone's time here.  Perhaps you should check out CAF.  They love to show everyone how Christ-like they are through the exercise of false charity. You'll fit right in.

Thanks for giving me the perfect opportunity to highlight the differences I was referring to.  Enjoy CAF.