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The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Printable Version

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Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Melkite - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 11:18 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: Melkite, you seem to have put a lot of emotional energy into this.  Is it worth it?  Is it making you feel better?  My point: if this is how you feel every day, then I would seek help.  Your foreskin is not the sum total of who you are.  Surely what your parents did in ignorance of how it would affect you was still done with the intention of taking care of you.  They can't undo it at this point.  Maybe it is time to move on.

I feel like i would be lying to myself if i just moved on.  Moving on is like telling myself it was no big deal.  It would be like i was telling myself that it doesn't upset me as much as it does.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Fontevrault - 02-28-2014

Melkite, I was raped once.  I felt like my whole world had fallen to pieces.  I could not function, think, do anything.  I wanted to crawl nto a hole and die.  I nursed that pain for a long, long time.  Eventually, I realized that my refusal to move on was the equivalent of letting my attacker have power over me again and again.  I got up, dusted myself off and started to fight to take back control of who I was.  The choice is yours, but if you let this define who you are, it will rip you apart every day.  Is that really what you want? 

I think you might find that you could be a better advocate for eliminating circumcision if you were calmer about it.  Your arguments would be less filled with vitriol and more effective.

Give it to God and ask him to help you rebuild your sense of self.  Life doesn't have to be so filled with angst.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Melkite - 02-28-2014

How were you able to let it go?


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Fontevrault - 03-01-2014

It didn't happen overnight.  I started each day struggling to control emotions, struggling to find normal, just doing things step by step.  My family was there for me and held me up when I wanted to falter.  Then, one day I went to mass again - the first time in at least a year.  Something inside me crumbled and I cried and cried.  I went to confession and cried some more.  Then God reached into me and gave me strength I didn't know was possible.  I figured myself out, calmed down, and even went back to the college where it had happened.  I hated a lot of my time there but I finished what I had started and even met my husband on campus.  There were days when I didn't want to go back, even talked about withdrawing.  So much of the campus held memories of what had happened.  I never attended my own graduation; I had no desire to do so.  My mom once asked me why I went back.  I told her that there was no way that SOB was going to deprive me of the education I wanted.  I wasnt going to be run off campus.  A lot of it was pure stubborn force of will but I got through what I needed to to earn my own self respect back.

Along the way I realized that trauma doesn't define us unless we let it.  If you want it to, it can make you a stronger, better person.  These trials are little crosses.  If we wallow in self pity, we are not emulating Christ are we?  The key is to give all our pain and all our suffering to Him and let Him teach us and help us grow from it.

I think perhaps you put too much emphasis on your penis as the definition of your manhood.  Sure, it is part of it.  But your character, your faith, and your honor are far more important.  If you lost your penis in a tragic accident, you would still be a man because of everything else.  Wouldn't it be better to focus on the rest?


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Geremia - 03-01-2014

(02-27-2014, 02:02 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I think the passage that the OP quoted is in reference to ritual circumcision.
And "medical" circumcision is not ritual circumcision?

Circumcisions have no medical justification. See, e.g., PDF pg. 52 f. of Boyd's Circumcision Exposed.

Just because a doctor performs it doesn't necessarily make it medical and non-ritual.

Amputations are only justified if the member to be amputated immediately threatens the health of the whole body. This is not true for circumcision. Thus, if circumcisions are not medical, what are they, besides ritual? Abortions are ritual for the same reason.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - austenbosten - 03-01-2014

Okay I lost the bet, this will go on longer than 8 pages.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - JubilateDeo83 - 03-02-2014

When you have kids every single decision you make with your baby is judged harshly. 

Breastfeed in public?  You're a disgrace. 

Formula feed?  How dare you deprive your baby of nature's perfect nutrition. 

Vaccinate?  You're subjecting your baby to tons of CHEMICALS they might not be able to process. 

Anti-vax?  You're part of the problem and a threat to herd immunity. 

Stay at home mom?  You must twiddle your thumbs and color with your kids all day.  You have the sweet life!

Working mom?  You must not love your baby enough to stay home.

Cry it out?  Oh my God, how can you let your child cry?  your kid is going to end up with attachment issues and resent you for life!

Co-sleep?  You're going to roll over on the baby and KILL it.

Sending your kids to school:  Your kids are going to lose their souls once they're indoctrinated into secular ways of thinking.

Homeschooling:  But what about...SOCIALIZATION

Gentle discipline:  How can you let your children run wild and walk all over you?

Spanking?  **Shudder**  *backs away slowly*  Better save up for therapy now while you still can.

You get the picture.  Really, I'm tired of people going on and on judging each other's parenting decisions.  It's like no matter what you do as a mom, you can't win and there's always some Judge Judy giving you the stink-eye at playgroup because if you really loved your children, you wouldn't do that.  We're living in a time when no one feels confident to raise their kids and follow their instincts.  Instead, we look to books, TV experts, and websites on the internet touting various studies to inform our choices.  Instead of focusing on important stuff like instilling virtue in your children, helping them to be kind to others, giving them a work ethic, and forming their SOULS, people focus on these extraneous choices.  And I think in the grand scheme of things, circumcision is extraneous.  There are always going to be some outliers who insist that being spanked as kids ruined their life, or kids who really WERE rolled over and suffocated because Mom thought it was best to co-sleep.  And it sounds like from this thread, there are some men that seem to be bothered by their circumcisions.  But this is the first time I've ever heard such complaints and I have a hard time believing it has a major effect on most men, or most of their wives.  I don't think there is one early parenting decision that is going to make-or-break your child's entire life--aside from the occasional outlier.

God has only blessed us with girls so far, but my husband and I have talked about what we'd do if it was a boy and I have said that it is 100% up to him.  He's the one with the male equipment and thus I think he's more equipped to make the decision.  In the 70's when my husband was born, circumcision was "the thing to do" and everyone did it because their parents did it and it was a common medical practice.  I wouldn't have any problem if my husband wanted to circumcise because his parents made that decision.  Lord knows that so many parenting decisions I make are the same ones my mother and grandmother made.  I think circumcising the way it's done in pediatrician's offices is outdated medicine, but I think it is different from the type of religious circumcisions that the Church forbids.  I wouldn't look down on a Christian who did it unless they had a bris or something weird like that, and I certainly would not compare it to rape or abortion.

I wonder what some of the anti-circ people think about getting your daughter's ears pierced in infancy.  It's poking a hole that doesn't need to be there just for the purposes of looking pretty.  I chose not to have my daughter's ears pierced and my husband's side of the family still asks me when I'm finally going to have her pierced.  What does an infant need with a piercing?  Why stop at ears, why not eyebrow rings, tongue rings, belly button rings and the like?  I don't see why you'd want to pierce your baby girl's ears.  I'd worry that the baby would just pull the earrings off and choke on them.  I got my ears pierced for my 9th birthday and I took care of the piercings myself.  Then in my teen years, I went to this horrible alternative high school where we weren't allowed to get tattoos or piercings because it's "Self-mutilation."  So, a mom getting her infant daughters' ears pierced is not mutilating her daughter, but if I, at 14, want an eyebrow ring, that's "self mutilation" according the school personnel.  But I wouldn't look down on someone who got their daughter's ears' pierced.  Unless it is a sin, I try, out of charity, to assume that the other mom came to that conclusion out of love for their child, and a sense that this was what was best for them, and I leave it at that.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - VoxClamantis - 03-02-2014

(03-02-2014, 02:10 AM)JubilateDeo83 Wrote: I wonder what some of the anti-circ people think about getting your daughter's ears pierced in infancy.  It's poking a hole that doesn't need to be there just for the purposes of looking pretty.  I chose not to have my daughter's ears pierced and my husband's side of the family still asks me when I'm finally going to have her pierced.  What does an infant need with a piercing?  Why stop at ears, why not eyebrow rings, tongue rings, belly button rings and the like?  I don't see why you'd want to pierce your baby girl's ears.  I'd worry that the baby would just pull the earrings off and choke on them.  I got my ears pierced for my 9th birthday and I took care of the piercings myself.  Then in my teen years, I went to this horrible alternative high school where we weren't allowed to get tattoos or piercings because it's "Self-mutilation."  So, a mom getting her infant daughters' ears pierced is not mutilating her daughter, but if I, at 14, want an eyebrow ring, that's "self mutilation" according the school personnel.  But I wouldn't look down on someone who got their daughter's ears' pierced.  Unless it is a sin, I try, out of charity, to assume that the other mom came to that conclusion out of love for their child, and a sense that this was what was best for them, and I leave it at that.

Well, AMEN to assuming the best about other parents! And you are most definitely right about how parents are always damned if they do, and damned if they don't. While I think some things are obvious goods when it comes to raising kids (love, emotional affirmation, etc.), and some things are definite wrongs (ridicule, beating them -- as opposed to sane and considered corporal punishment, for ex.), so much is read into every little thing a parent does that it's got to cause a lot of unwarranted anxiety.

But there is, as I see it, a big difference between piercing a kid's ears, and amputating a body part that has a big effect on the sexual pleasure both the child and his future wife will experience (which does not mean I condone piercing babies' ears.).  That said, though, and as I said to Austenbosten, most parents are doing what they think is the right thing for their kids (or, probably at least equally likely, acting out of habit and a sense of "that's what folks do!"), and they should most definitely be given the benefit of the doubt. Criticizing actions is always different from impugning motives and mischaracterizing others. People should assume the best about others.

I am 100% against the routine circumcision of male babies, but wouldn't dream of accusing a parent who does circumcise as being cruel or immoral or what have you. I think it is objectively wrong (as a routine procedure), but as with all wrong actions, culpability requires full knowledge, full consent, etc. And most parents THINK they are doing the right thing -- or just don't really think about it at all. So while their objective action may be wrong (and I am totally convinced that it is), they may be great parents in terms of their will, their love for their children, their love for God, their desire to do God's will, etc..

It's like a lot of the divisions I see in the trad world, a lot of the things we fight about:  while I think thoughtful people have to take sides intellectually, I don't see any need for "gang-banging" and not assuming the best about others.




Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - triumphguy - 03-02-2014

(03-01-2014, 12:27 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(02-27-2014, 02:02 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I think the passage that the OP quoted is in reference to ritual circumcision.
And "medical" circumcision is not ritual circumcision?

Circumcisions have no medical justification. See, e.g., PDF pg. 52 f. of Boyd's Circumcision Exposed.

Just because a doctor performs it doesn't necessarily make it medical and non-ritual.

Amputations are only justified if the member to be amputated immediately threatens the health of the whole body. This is not true for circumcision. Thus, if circumcisions are not medical, what are they, besides ritual? Abortions are ritual for the same reason.
My nephew had a circumcision for medical reasons - repeated infections from his skin being too tight.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - VoxClamantis - 03-02-2014

(03-02-2014, 02:58 AM)triumphguy Wrote:
(03-01-2014, 12:27 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(02-27-2014, 02:02 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: I think the passage that the OP quoted is in reference to ritual circumcision.
And "medical" circumcision is not ritual circumcision?

Circumcisions have no medical justification. See, e.g., PDF pg. 52 f. of Boyd's Circumcision Exposed.

Just because a doctor performs it doesn't necessarily make it medical and non-ritual.

Amputations are only justified if the member to be amputated immediately threatens the health of the whole body. This is not true for circumcision. Thus, if circumcisions are not medical, what are they, besides ritual? Abortions are ritual for the same reason.
My nephew had a circumcision for medical reasons - repeated infections from his skin being too tight.

Amputation of the foreskin for medical reasons that actually exist is always permissible, as is amputation of arms or legs in cases of necrosis, etc. Every situation has a context...