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The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Printable Version

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Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - VoxClamantis - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 09:47 PM)lumine Wrote: Yes, I am circumcised. No, it has not been an issue in my life, my married life.  I don't know where you are coming from or why, but you need to understand that circumcision is not rape.

I do NOT want this post to be seen as directed at YOU personally. The intimate details of your married life -- that's all yours and your wife's, and I'm sure the both of you are happy!  But I do want to say something about circumcision and the marital act in general:  folks who've never had sexual experience not being circumcised simply can't know on a subjective level what it is to have sex as an intact male. Women, though, if they've had experiences with intact and circumcised men, can know the differences.

Imagine a piston. Then imagine a stick of the same circumference as the gliding part of the piston. Then make a circle with your hand and imagine the former going in and out of that circle, and then imagine the latter going in and out of that circle. The difference: friction that leads to chafing (which leads to STDs being more easily transmitted, BTW). Also, as I say on the circumcision pages of the FE website: With a circumcised penis, "[t]he entire glans is exposed. The penis loses sensitivity and its flesh becomes thickened and scarred. The foreskin that once would act to help the penis glide in the wife's vagina, the natural lubrication qualities of the mucous lining of the inner prepuce, are gone. Gone, too, are the ridged bands of highly specialized nerve endings (Meissner's corpuscles) and the frenulum... The amount of flesh lost in the adult penis would cover a 3X5 index card."

IOW, there are sexual differences for both the husband and the wife that stem from circumcision.  While one can't miss what one doesn't know, it's easy to imagine the differences in the sex act, for both sexes, when the information is given to you.






Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - lumine - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 10:06 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 09:47 PM)lumine Wrote: Yes, I am circumcised. No, it has not been an issue in my life, my married life.  I don't know where you are coming from or why, but you need to understand that circumcision is not rape.

I do NOT want this post to be seen as directed at YOU personally.

Thank you for pointing that out at the beginning of your response,Vox.  I didn't take it personally.  You are right that I cannot know what sex would be like with an intact foreskin.  Perhaps I will just leave it at that.    :)


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - VoxClamantis - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 09:54 PM)austenbosten Wrote: (snip)

Michelle Arnold wrote something that sums up my view on this:

Quote:Circumcision was established by God and practiced by God's people in obedience to him for thousands of years until it was superceded by baptism. Given that, we must assume that God would not establish a ritual for his people that can be considered deliberate mutilation and thus intrinsically immoral.

Even so, parents who object to non-therapeutic circumcision have the right to refuse to circumcise their sons as a matter of conscience. They should, however, take care not to make their arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise.

Well, I most definitely agree that most --  surely just about ALL -- parents who circumcise their sons aren't acting out of malice or some nefarious motives, and I think anti-circ folks, such as me, need to be very careful to not cast aspersions on the characters and motives of parents who do circumcise. I think most folks simply don't think about the issue. It's "what's done." It's what their family does. It was done to them, so they do it their kids -- a habit, almost. It's understandable; most folks are pretty "unthinking." It's just the way it is. And most folks love their kids; that's how nature made us.

For ex., I don't think at ALL that my own parents, who had my brothers circumcised, were bad parents, or evil, etc. I do believe they were wrong, and if I'd been in the position to try to talk them out of it when my brothers were going to be circumcised, I certainly would have tried. But I know my parents (R.I.P.) and I know they loved us kids and never did anything to us out of malice.
 


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - austenbosten - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 10:16 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 09:54 PM)austenbosten Wrote: (snip)

Michelle Arnold wrote something that sums up my view on this:

Quote:Circumcision was established by God and practiced by God's people in obedience to him for thousands of years until it was superceded by baptism. Given that, we must assume that God would not establish a ritual for his people that can be considered deliberate mutilation and thus intrinsically immoral.

Even so, parents who object to non-therapeutic circumcision have the right to refuse to circumcise their sons as a matter of conscience. They should, however, take care not to make their arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise.

Well, I most definitely agree that most --  surely just about ALL -- parents who circumcise their sons aren't acting out of malice or some nefarious motives, and I think anti-circ folks, such as me, need to be very careful to not cast aspersions on the characters and motives of parents who do circumcise. I think most folks simply don't think about the issue. It's "what's done." It's what their family does. It was done to them, so they do it their kids -- a habit, almost. It's understandable; most folks are pretty "unthinking." It's just the way it is. And most folks love their kids; that's how nature made us.

For ex., I don't think at ALL that my own parents, who had my brothers circumcised, were bad parents, or evil, etc. I do believe they were wrong, and if I'd been in the position to try to talk them out of it when my brothers were going to be circumcised, I certainly would have tried. But I know my parents (R.I.P.) and I know they loved us kids and never did anything to us out of malice.
 

Well thank God, we can finally agree on something for a change. Yeah I have no problem with parents who choose not to do it, because of what their conscience tells them. It's their prerogative and I believe they are doing it in their child's best interests.

I'm pro-vaccine (to a point, some are pointless and dangerous in my opinion) and my fiancee's parents didn't vaccinate their kids. I don't view them as bad and I do disagree with their choice, but their parents did all their own research and did what they felt was best for their kids. Their kids are all healthy...so I'm certainly not going to still tell them they did the wrong thing and all kids should be vaccinated. I think given the environment they were safe to make the choice, but I still wouldn't have done it, however it was their choice and I don't think any less of them cause of it.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Melkite - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 09:47 PM)lumine Wrote: Your reasoning is off.  Rape is sexual assault, unwanted and forced or coerced.  Your parents made a decision to have you circumcised.  If you were an infant,  then you don't remember it.  It wasn't done as an assault on you.  You weren't a victim of a person who wanted a deviant, perverted control of you.  The doctor did not want to dominate and shame and humiliate you.  It was most likely done for "hygienic" reasons.  I don't know why you feel the way you do.  I don't know what happened to trigger this rage in you, but it sounds like you need to deal with it with a therapist.  

Yes, I am circumcised. No, it has not been an issue in my life, my married life.  I don't know where you are coming from or why, but you need to understand that circumcision is not rape.

I don't understand how mutilating a sexual member can be seen as not sexual assault.  My circumcision was absolutely a rape.  It was sexual assault, unwanted and forced.  The fact that i cannot remember it is entirely irrelevent.  It does not negate it in the slightest.  It does not matter that the doctor did not perceive himself to be an assailant.  When heterosexual men rape homosexual women and men to cure them of their homosexuality, their delusional perception that they are doing something therapeutic for their victims in no way exempts them from guilt of rape.  The doctor intended to cut part of my genitals off and he was successful in doing so.  It was rape, pure and simple.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Melkite - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 09:57 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Melkite!  :O

Please don't tell me you were pinning your hopes on the deaths of aborted fetuses, just so you can have a piece of skin and some nerve-endings on your penis.

No no, definitely not!  I would only use my own adult stem cells.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - austenbosten - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 11:02 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 09:57 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Melkite!  :O

Please don't tell me you were pinning your hopes on the deaths of aborted fetuses, just so you can have a piece of skin and some nerve-endings on your penis.

No no, definitely not!  I would only use my own adult stem cells.

Well that's good, well there is a company working using adult stem cells to regrow that, so there is hope.


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Fontevrault - 02-28-2014




Sorry!  I couldn't help it!  You guys are really intense!


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Melkite - 02-28-2014

(02-28-2014, 09:58 PM)lumine Wrote: Are you saying that this was done against your will and you were held down and it was forced on you at a time in your life when you could remember it vividly? That would constitute sexual assault.

Well, my body remembered it, as I had a dream as a toddler that I cannot explain in any other way.  Again, it is entirely irrelevant that I don't have a conscious memory of it.  I did not give my consent, therefore it was done against my will.  

Quote:If it was done to you as an infant with the permission of your parents, then it wasn't rape or sexual assault.

Parents do not have the right to proxy authorize mutilation.  My parents did not have the right to give permission.  A question for you.  When parents decide to give permission for their infant daughters to be mutilated, is it not rape or assault because they are too young to remember it or because their parents gave the ok?  Is the FGM act, which is current US law, erroneous in defining such mutilation as assault?

Quote:I don't know what about it makes you feel dirty (sexually speaking?), and you certainly were not emasculated. Violated?  Not if it was done to you with permission from your parents.

I feel dirty because I was violated.  I feel dirty because it was done because my doctor and my parents had the perception that the foreskin is something bad and needed to be removed.  I was emasculated because part of what was physically male was considered worthless and condemned.  Again, my parents had no authority to give their permission.  It was authority they did not have, so their permission does not free them from the guilt of violation.  If a child has no right to the body he was born with, because he can't remember and he can't say no, then any argument for a child's right to not be aborted falls completely flat.

Quote:I don't know what triggered all of this in you, but you have issues to deal with or you will needlessly burden yourself.

If my burden somehow results in parents who want to circumcise their sons from being legally forced not to, then I guess the burden would have been worth it.  


Re: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason! - Fontevrault - 02-28-2014

Melkite, you seem to have put a lot of emotional energy into this.  Is it worth it?  Is it making you feel better?  My point: if this is how you feel every day, then I would seek help.  Your foreskin is not the sum total of who you are.  Surely what your parents did in ignorance of how it would affect you was still done with the intention of taking care of you.  They can't undo it at this point.  Maybe it is time to move on.