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Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Printable Version

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Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - JacafamalaRedux - 09-18-2014

God sees and He will judge. Don't panic.  Just remain faithful, that is all Our Lord expects form us.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Maldon - 09-18-2014

It's not your club membership that makes a difference to your salvation, except the One Club, the Catholic Church, which has a head, the Pope, and bishops and priests under him. That's it. Thus the choice is not between Pope Francis and SSPX: it is between the Catholic Church and anything else.
Now, the mere fact that Pope Francis is the Pope of the Catholic Church does not at all mean that he is good, holy, even decent. He could be (and I think he is) clueless, misguided, and destructive. He also has zero effect on my life as a Catholic, because where I go to church the priest is FSSP, the doctrine perfect, the liturgy perfect. So unless you are affected by Pope Francis in some way, I suggest you stay wherever you are (including if you already are with the SSPX) and not make radical changes in your 'status' one way or another just because you have a bad pope and all the bad bishops are getting red hats, and all the good guys are getting farmed out. This kind of thing has happened before and will, sadly, happen again in the history of the Church. So, the real choice I think is Catholic Church and Sede. The rest is just people trying to use teh fact of a bad pope to make changes that they feel badly about for some other reason.
But there is one good thing in this: there is no more illusion of peace and unity. Lines are being drawn in the sand in Rome. Finally.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - demoslider - 09-18-2014

(09-18-2014, 09:42 AM)PolishTrad Wrote:
(09-18-2014, 08:50 AM)Renatus Frater Wrote:
(09-18-2014, 04:52 AM)tradprof Wrote: I know Cardinal Burke. I first met him when he was bishop at La Crosse, WI and he was under fire for installing the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem, an order which was dedicated to offering the Latin Mass, each  time striving for an even higher level of perfection in the liturgy. The real Mass was offered in the cathedral daily when Bishop Burke was there. The school was located in the same building and not once in the whole time the Canons were there did any teacher bring any child to the Latin Mass, if for no other reason than the history of it. Shame on the blind--and arrogant and stubborn--in that diocese.

Cardinal Burke is a saint-in-waiting. The same can't be said of Pope Francis...unless, of course, you assume he'll also be canonized like the other Vatican II era popes to prove that VII was a really swell idea and not a failure leading to the demise of what now passes for the Catholic Church. I am always amazed to hear so many say Francis must be the correct choice for the Church; the Holy Ghost surely was involved in his selection. But why can't this just be a case of Divine permissive will allowing the chaff of the magisterium to be separated from the wheat of true faith? We are getting exactly what we deserve, whether it be in the form of the pope, cardinals and bishops or politicians, entertainers and social activists. But I also believe we're getting exactly what God intends. I'm older; if someone had told me 50 years ago that we would ever be at this state I would have thought them insane.

The more I watch what's happening with this almost unintelligible pope and his lack of knowledge of or interest in dogma and faith, I'm beginning to think that the Society of St. Pius X may, indeed, become the final repository of the real Catholic Church. If things go very wrong with the fall synod, I'm heading to the nearest SSPX chapel...for good. Many are called but few are chosen. A great many saints--and Pope Benedict himself--have said it will turn out to be a VERY few. It's starting to look like among them will be those with the SSPX. The rest of the "church" is increasingly heading toward being the real schismatics.

I agree with you here.
This Pope might have some faith, throwing himself the way he does without protection into moslem territory. But still, he's by no means a bright man and he seems to have a great animosity towards the traditions of the Church. By most measures he's a disaster.
Indeed if something too radical happens at the Synod (a Synod according to the reports is being manipulated into a liberal revolution) I myself will go rather quickly to the next SSPX chapel.
Why the SSPX? It is extremely unlikely that SSPX will become sedevacantist even if tables are turned at the Synod. Sedevacantism is the worst heresy for the SSPX. To me it seems that if anything radical happens in October there'll be two choices: sedevacantism or Orthodoxy.

How can Orthodoxy be a logical option? They already allow divorce and remarriage.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - formerbuddhist - 09-18-2014

Francis is a revolutionary but it's no real surprise considering his background,his formation and his style while he was in South America. The Roman Catholic Church has been destroying itself from within for over half a century,it's hard to watch, especially when during the Benedict pontificate things seemed to be getting better.

There are a handful of prelates like Cardinal Burke, and Athanasius Schneider that want the Church to be a spiritual institution whose mission is the sanctification of men and the salvation of souls but for every Cardinal Burke or Athanasius Schneider there are 10 Roger Mahony's, Jorge Bergoglio's or Timothy Dolan's to derail them.

While I do not support the SSPX I certainly have sympathy for them and those who attend their chapels. They just want the Roman Catholicism our grandparents and great grandparents remembered,a Roman Catholicism of real piety,devotion and beauty.




Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Geographer - 09-18-2014

(09-18-2014, 12:04 PM)maldon Wrote: It's not your club membership that makes a difference to your salvation, except the One Club, the Catholic Church, which has a head, the Pope, and bishops and priests under him. That's it. Thus the choice is not between Pope Francis and SSPX: it is between the Catholic Church and anything else.
Now, the mere fact that Pope Francis is the Pope of the Catholic Church does not at all mean that he is good, holy, even decent. He could be (and I think he is) clueless, misguided, and destructive. He also has zero effect on my life as a Catholic, because where I go to church the priest is FSSP, the doctrine perfect, the liturgy perfect. So unless you are affected by Pope Francis in some way, I suggest you stay wherever you are (including if you already are with the SSPX) and not make radical changes in your 'status' one way or another just because you have a bad pope and all the bad bishops are getting red hats, and all the good guys are getting farmed out. This kind of thing has happened before and will, sadly, happen again in the history of the Church. So, the real choice I think is Catholic Church and Sede. The rest is just people trying to use teh fact of a bad pope to make changes that they feel badly about for some other reason.
But there is one good thing in this: there is no more illusion of peace and unity. Lines are being drawn in the sand in Rome. Finally.

I agree with you in principle as we also attend the TLM said by a diocese priest. However, I pose this question to you and the other posters here: At what point would you consider separating  yourself from the church? Putting it another way, at what point would the Catholic church descend into error and cease to be the Catholic church? I realize that is in the eyes of the beholder and could be argued several ways. My wife and I were discussing the problems in the church, and came to the conclusion that we would attend the SSPX  if the Pope were to snap his fingers and declare SP null and invalid. In our minds, the church at that point would have crossed an important line, and thus would lack the moral authority to compel us to attend the NO.  I pose this question only because we, i.e. the Traditional community, may be faced with that horrible choice.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Renatus Frater - 09-18-2014

(09-18-2014, 04:59 PM)Geographer Wrote:
(09-18-2014, 12:04 PM)maldon Wrote: It's not your club membership that makes a difference to your salvation, except the One Club, the Catholic Church, which has a head, the Pope, and bishops and priests under him. That's it. Thus the choice is not between Pope Francis and SSPX: it is between the Catholic Church and anything else.
Now, the mere fact that Pope Francis is the Pope of the Catholic Church does not at all mean that he is good, holy, even decent. He could be (and I think he is) clueless, misguided, and destructive. He also has zero effect on my life as a Catholic, because where I go to church the priest is FSSP, the doctrine perfect, the liturgy perfect. So unless you are affected by Pope Francis in some way, I suggest you stay wherever you are (including if you already are with the SSPX) and not make radical changes in your 'status' one way or another just because you have a bad pope and all the bad bishops are getting red hats, and all the good guys are getting farmed out. This kind of thing has happened before and will, sadly, happen again in the history of the Church. So, the real choice I think is Catholic Church and Sede. The rest is just people trying to use teh fact of a bad pope to make changes that they feel badly about for some other reason.
But there is one good thing in this: there is no more illusion of peace and unity. Lines are being drawn in the sand in Rome. Finally.

I agree with you in principle as we also attend the TLM said by a diocese priest. However, I pose this question to you and the other posters here: At what point would you consider separating  yourself from the church? Putting it another way, at what point would the Catholic church descend into error and cease to be the Catholic church? I realize that is in the eyes of the beholder and could be argued several ways. My wife and I were discussing the problems in the church, and came to the conclusion that we would attend the SSPX  if the Pope were to snap his fingers and declare SP null and invalid. In our minds, the church at that point would have crossed an important line, and thus would lack the moral authority to compel us to attend the NO.  I pose this question only because we, i.e. the Traditional community, may be faced with that horrible choice.

I also agree with maldon, and this shows the profundity of my confusion, since I also agree with tradprof.
I think this Synod could produce effects very close to us all. For instance, we might see adulterous relations being blessed by the Church. This is not merely a question of legalism or discipline, but as Robert Spaemann pointed out in an article in FirstThings, to allow communion to people in such relationships assumes a very strange theological principle, and to bless such relationships is plainly offensive, to the partner abandoned and a sacrilege.
There's also the more drastic changes that could occur if the more radical Jacobins have their way: gay marriage, blessing of gays, etc.
The strong point of the SSPX is that they seem capable of stubbornly holding to the traditions. And while some diocesans or other groups can be very traditional, will they be able to support the pressure?

Frankly, I think we need a bit of the virility of Easterners. Even bishops should be accountable to the truth.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Sequentia - 09-18-2014

(09-18-2014, 12:21 PM)demoslider Wrote: How can Orthodoxy be a logical option? They already allow divorce and remarriage.

I have always wondered why the Orthodox allow divorce, especially when Jesus speaks about it in Matthew 19. The Orthodox consider the "Roman Church" to be completely legalistic (that's generally all that internet Orthodox complain about to Catholics; definitely some of the rudest Christians online). Being pro-divorce and even encouraging it has made me realize that the Orthodox Church has zero credibility. Not to mention that heresy of phyletism that they tend to promote.

I hope Papa Francisco rethinks this decision with regards to Cardinal Burke and other clergy who are promoting the traditional EF Mass.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - formerbuddhist - 09-18-2014

In all fairness phyletism is an evil and many serious Orthodox  would condemn it outright. Phyletism is not an official teaching of Orthodoxy. Phyletism should be condemned outright more than it is in some circles. 


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - salus - 09-18-2014

They are purging the orthodox Cardinals not the homosexual mafia in the Vatican, is Pope Francis one of them? I'm certain Cardinal Dolan is.


Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Papist - 09-18-2014

And this is why I understand and empathize with the SSPX more each day.