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Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Printable Version

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Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Geremia - 09-21-2014

(09-18-2014, 04:52 AM)tradprof Wrote: Cardinal Burke is a saint-in-waiting.
Possibly. St. Athanasius was exiled.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Geographer - 09-21-2014

Maldon. Thank you for replying to my posts. Reading your insights gives me hope for the future even if things appear bleak at this time. I read somewhere that 50% of the masses said in France are in the EF. I am skeptical that it is as high as 50%, although if you combine all of the TLM's in all of the traditional organizations inside as well as outside of the church, coupled with the fact that attendance in the NO form is at an all time low, that may be possible.

One area where I may somewhat disagree with you is your advice not to jump ship.  As I mentioned in my previous post, we will continue to attend the diocesan TLM's  so long as the pope does not abrogate SP, or create conditions inside the church that render SP unenforceable. I believe that we need to work from within and outside of the church to restore tradition, and all of the clergy and laity in all of the traditionalists organizations are brothers and sisters in tradition. When Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church", I believe that to be true. However, the governing body of the church may not be headquartered in Rome forever. Let say that Rome completely goes off the rails, while other organizations, i.e. possibly the SSPX,  maintains the traditional teachings of the church. Then fast forward 500 years into the future when Rome is collapsed spiritually, morally and financially and is Catholic in name only, while tradition is robust and popular.  In that case, the "church" left standing gets to write and interpret the history, and apologists in the future could explain how succession was maintained from St. Peter through the leaders of the future, and thus the gates of hell will not have prevailed.  I agree with you that the church is not yet at that point, but I see organizations such as the SSPX as an insurance policy.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - ThomasTheDoubter - 09-22-2014

It's not that simple. To be a Roman Catholic it is necessary to be subject to the Pontiff. If a tradition is changed it is either that it is not part of Sacred Tradition or that sedevacantists or some other group are correct.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - SaintSebastian - 09-22-2014

(09-21-2014, 09:11 PM)Geographer Wrote: ...the governing body of the church may not be headquartered in Rome forever. Let say that Rome completely goes off the rails, while other organizations, i.e. possibly the SSPX,  maintains the traditional teachings of the church. Then fast forward 500 years into the future when Rome is collapsed spiritually, morally and financially and is Catholic in name only, while tradition is robust and popular.

The primacy and the bishopric of Rome are one and the same thing--they form one, inseparable episcopacy. The idea that the primacy could be transferred to another See was definitively condemned by Pope Bl. Pius IX in the Apostolic Letter Ad Apostolicae, which is in the context of condemning the errors in a particular work originating out of Lima,  entitle "Defensa de la autoritad de los Gobiernos y de los Obispos contra las pretenciones de la Curia Romana," by Francisco de Paula G. Vigil.

Furthermore, one of the errors of Peter de Osma definitively condemned by Pope Sixtus IV was that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error."  If it could, St. Irenaeus would be wrong to say that all the Churches must agree with the Church of Rome.

That of course doesn't mean Rome won't have its problems (and may be better practiced elsewhere), as St. Bridget described in her times:

St. Bridget Wrote:Today I can say of Rome what the prophet said of Jerusalem: 'Once righteousness lodged in her and her princes were princes of peace. Now she has turned to dross and her princes have become murderers.' O Rome, if you knew your days, you would surely weep and not rejoice. Rome was in olden days like a tapestry dyed in beautiful colors and woven with noble threads. Its soil was dyed in red, that is, in the blood of martyrs, and woven, that is, mixed with the bones of the saints. Now her gates are abandoned, in that their defenders and guardians have turned to avarice. Her walls are thrown down and left unguarded, in that no one cares that souls are being lost. Rather, the clergy and the people, who are the walls of God, have scattered away to work for carnal advantage. The sacred vessels are sold with scorn, in that God's sacraments are administered for money and worldly favors.

The altars are abandoned, in that the priest who celebrates with the vessels has hands empty as to love for God but keeps his eyes on the collection; although he has God in his hands, his heart is empty of God, for it is full of the vain things of the world. The holy of holies, where the highest sacrifice used to be consumed, represents the desire to see and enjoy God. From this desire, there should rise up love for God and neighbor and the fragrance of temperance and virtue. However, the sacrifice is now consumed in the portico, that is, in the world, in that the love for God has completely turned into worldly vanity and lack of temperance.

Such is Rome, as you have seen it physically. Many altars are abandoned, the collection is spent in taverns, and the people who give to it have more time for the world than for God. But you should know that countless souls ascended into heaven from the time of humble Peter until Boniface ascended the throne of pride. Yet Rome is still not without friends of God. If they were given some help, they would cry out to the Lord and he would have mercy on them.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - formerbuddhist - 09-22-2014

But how do you prove that what St. Iranaeus said about the Church of Rome was not conditional, as in one must agree with the Church of.Rome so long as Rome doesn't fall away? Vatican II and the papal weirdness of the last 60 years certainly does not make the claims that Rome is the True Church easy to accept nor all that credible really. The Vatican II era is the biggest stumbling block for me to accept Rome as the True Church.

I dont care a whit for scholasticism and Thomism and all that, but at least prior to the 60's Rome seemed invincible, it seemed to be what it claimed it was. Now it doesn't. It takes a huge leap of faith in the dark with no use of reason whatsoever to to believe it.  It appears as if Rome, under the papacy, had destroyed itself and has spent the last 60 years celebrating it's own about face and demise as a second pentecost. Insane really.

I don't really blame people for joining a sede or SSPX chapel or for even burying their heads in the sand. Anything to keep the faith.and ones sanity I suppose.  Its excruciating for me because I love specifically Catholic things like Eucharistic adoration, the Benedictine Office, the fully developed theology of sacramentals,Western Advent and parts of the Sacred Heart and the Rosary,Gregorian Chant,Ember Days etc, buy I do not believe Rome is the true Church in light of Vatican II, or I struggle deeply with it. I do not want to be in communion with Francis,Cardinal O Malley,Cardinal Dolan et. al. I just don't,I can't bring myself to it.

I want to believe I made the right decision in becoming Catholic, but lately it's been a huge struggle. Please pray for me, as it's very hard. I have never, ever lost my faith in Jesus Christ nor have I stopped praying, however, my faith in Rome continues to flounder.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - SaintSebastian - 09-22-2014

This isn't the first time the Church of Rome's credibility has been hurt by her members, and even her heads.  And there is a reason why those times led to major problems.  The Great Schism, the Reformation, and various other smaller hemorrhagings have happened when Rome's credibility was at a low point.  In other words, you're not the first person to feel that way.

In fact, the very reason Rome's supernatural prerogatives have had to be defended historically is because opponents raised objections to them based on that apparent low credibility. 

Rome seems unassailable to you until the 1950s because it weathered those periods when its credibility had been shaken and came out the stronger for it.  I guess we'll see if it can do it again.

Some more from St. Bridget (from the same letter quoted above, the absent Pope was in France):

St. Bridget Wrote:With their ceilings fallen in and their doors removed, the temples of these saints have been converted into latrines for men, dogs, and beasts. The city is spiritually unhappy, because many of the decrees issued in the church by holy popes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God and the salvation of souls have now been abolished. In their place, alas, many new abuses have been adopted under the  inspiration of the evil spirit for the dishonor of God and the perdition of souls.
[she goes into detail about the various problems]
Accordingly, Reverend Sir, do not be surprised if I have described the city of Rome as unhappy due to such abuses and many others opposed to ecclesiastical statutes. Hence, it is to be feared that the Catholic faith will soon perish, unless some such man arrives who, with a real and not a counterfeit faith, loves God above all things and his neighbor as himself and abolishes all these abuses. Have compassion, then, on the church and on those of her clergy who love God wholeheartedly and abhor all these wicked customs. They have been like orphans due to the pope's absence, but they have defended the see of their father like sons and have wisely opposed the traitors, persevering in the midst of much hardship.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Tantum Ergo Sacramentum - 09-22-2014

(09-19-2014, 12:52 PM)maldon Wrote: I agree with you, formerbuddhist. In many ways, it was worse in the last 50 years than it is now.

I would like to have the issue of Orthodox views East-West/ etc. explained by an Orthodox member if we have one, or someone who was Orthodox. In another thread, not this one!

Also, you know, a lot of really terrible things can happen in the Church by men of the cloth. The history of the Church is riddled with details of assassinations, bastard children, mistresses, Renaissance popes trying to be like pagan Roman emperors. The issue is the Blessed Sacrament. The issue is, do we have the Blessed Sacrament? Do we have priests? If a pope were to introduce laws that certainly invalidated the Eucharist, and did so with that intent, or ditto with priestly ordinations (and I am not talking about nitpicking over details that popes can change and alter), then we have a problem, and even then, the problem would not so much be a "membership" problem, but it would be our problem to know lineage, to know whether a priest is validly ordained or not. And again, I am not talking about abuses of a system. We have those, yes. I mean if a pope were to alter the law, the letter of the law itself to willfully remove the sacramental priesthood, then we would have a problem, but as I said, it would be a practical problem, not a theoretical, membership/group problem, and no, he won't do this anyway. They are too old and too inefficient, and the worst of them spend too much of their free time in gay bars instead of working away at night like older-generation secular humanist cardinals (like Wolseley). And the generation of younger, traditional priests is too large and formidable. An open battle would be a loss for the enemy. All kinds of good groups out there that are not even Trad groups would turn trad in an open battle. And there are too many good cardinals, Caffara, Burke, Ranjith, etc. These guys are not stupid. And the rotten ones know this. And the pope knows this. I think the rotters are just having a last hurrah and will expend themselves in acts of belittlement, in little acts of cruelty and insensitivity towards those to whom the future belongs.
Just think: in Quebec City, a place that sent more missionaries out to the world per capita than any country in the world after Ireland in the 50s, there will be about 6 churches open by 2020. This is what will happen. Emptiness. And the emptiness will be filled by the younger, better priests in groups that today are sidelined and maligned. It will happen in France first, is indeed happening. In the worst places, the improvements will be seen fastest. In Quebec, who is going to pay for all the archdiocesan infrastructure? Not the Quebecois. Not the sidelined groups. It will fall. Venerable, beautiful old buildings formerly dedicated to the worship of God and the teaching of seminarians and Catholic children will continue the process of being turned into secular university buildings, and government buildings, and, yes, condos. Gotta love the older generations of Quebecois that abandoned their Churches only to return to live in the same buildings once converted into secular condos. There's no place like home. And when the dust settles, out they will come. Catholics will still need Mass, and there will be, at least in Quebec, pretty much only the FSSP, the SSPX, Opus Dei, and the Dominicans (for some reason we seem to have a good batch of young, traditional Dominicans, go figure).
My point is that if you look at the worst places, you can see what will happen there and you can then see what will happen in Rome: they will cut, cut out and sideline good men, good cardinals, cut costs, dicasteries and bureaus and offices and congregations will be fusioned, joined up, to cut costs and so that there will actually be people in them, just like what they are doing to the parishes. Cut, close, fusion, cut costs, sideline the good guys, and then . . . die out. In Quebec they speak of "managing the shrinking". That is what we will see. So the removal of the Athanasius of today, Cardinal Burke, is part of the process of death of dead wood that has to happen before he returns to cultivate the growth that will come in the future Church, "smaller and more purified" as former Cardinal Ratzinger had said, to the consternation of all the Springtimers.

Here is this to add:  It is a sermon about Pope Stephen VII.  Don't jump ship.

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Geremia - 09-26-2014

(09-22-2014, 02:38 PM)Tantum Ergo Sacramentum Wrote: Don't jump ship.
What about jumping from the ocean to The Ship? :)

Re: Disturbing yet unsurprising. Cardinal Burke being removed. - Geremia - 09-27-2014

Who's replacing him?