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Re: Souls concerning abortion - jovan66102 - 08-06-2015

(08-06-2015, 05:45 PM)Papist Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 03:07 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 02:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Unfortunately, Traditionally, there are only two possibilities, hell and limbus puerorum . I personally believe in limbo, probably because a) I believe in a merciful God, and b) I lost a brother to a still birth.

Those are the only two possibilities if the child dies in original sin, but dying in original sin is not the only possibility.  In reply to the objection that the sin of Adam reaches farther than the grace of Christ, since original sin can reach into the womb but baptism can't, St. Thomas replied:

"Children while in the mother's womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11
I agree with St. Thomas.

Sorry, but if the Angelic Doctor (and remember, he was wrong on the Immaculate Conception) and Msgr McCarthy are right, you run into the same problem as with the modernist bullcrap that aborted or stillborn babies who die without Baptism go to Heaven. If that's the case, do the little ones a favour and abort them before they can be born and die without the Sacrament and go to limbo if they die before the age of reason, or receive it and then die after the age of reason in a state of mortal sin! At least if they're aborted in the womb they are guaranteed Heaven in either case, which is more than is true of any of us!


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Acolyte - 08-06-2015

No one deserves the gift of contrition.  Still less do we deserve the perfect contrition which is necessary for the dead soul with no access to sacraments.  But God is merciful.  On the one hand we should not presume on God's mercy, but neither should we despair of it, whether the sin is murder or any other sin.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Renatus Frater - 08-06-2015

(08-06-2015, 09:03 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:45 PM)Papist Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 03:07 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 02:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Unfortunately, Traditionally, there are only two possibilities, hell and limbus puerorum . I personally believe in limbo, probably because a) I believe in a merciful God, and b) I lost a brother to a still birth.

Those are the only two possibilities if the child dies in original sin, but dying in original sin is not the only possibility.  In reply to the objection that the sin of Adam reaches farther than the grace of Christ, since original sin can reach into the womb but baptism can't, St. Thomas replied:

"Children while in the mother's womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11
I agree with St. Thomas.

Sorry, but if the Angelic Doctor (and remember, he was wrong on the Immaculate Conception) and Msgr McCarthy are right, you run into the same problem as with the modernist bullcrap that aborted or stillborn babies who die without Baptism go to Heaven. If that's the case, do the little ones a favour and abort them before they can be born and die without the Sacrament and go to limbo if they die before the age of reason, or receive it and then die after the age of reason in a state of mortal sin! At least if they're aborted in the womb they are guaranteed Heaven in either case, which is more than is true of any of us!

That's non-sense. By the same logic one should immediately kill a baptized baby.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - richgr - 08-06-2015

(08-06-2015, 09:03 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:45 PM)Papist Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 03:07 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 02:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Unfortunately, Traditionally, there are only two possibilities, hell and limbus puerorum . I personally believe in limbo, probably because a) I believe in a merciful God, and b) I lost a brother to a still birth.

Those are the only two possibilities if the child dies in original sin, but dying in original sin is not the only possibility.  In reply to the objection that the sin of Adam reaches farther than the grace of Christ, since original sin can reach into the womb but baptism can't, St. Thomas replied:

"Children while in the mother's womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11
I agree with St. Thomas.

Sorry, but if the Angelic Doctor (and remember, he was wrong on the Immaculate Conception) and Msgr McCarthy are right, you run into the same problem as with the modernist bullcrap that aborted or stillborn babies who die without Baptism go to Heaven. If that's the case, do the little ones a favour and abort them before they can be born and die without the Sacrament and go to limbo if they die before the age of reason, or receive it and then die after the age of reason in a state of mortal sin! At least if they're aborted in the womb they are guaranteed Heaven in either case, which is more than is true of any of us!
It's simply another application of the theological principle that while men are bound by the Sacraments, God is not.

On the other hand, we may never commit evil in order to effect a good outcome, especially one presuming on God's mercy.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - jovan66102 - 08-06-2015

(08-06-2015, 09:10 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: That's non-sense. By the same logic one should immediately kill a baptized baby.

Actually, I tend to agree with you, but that's not the way it will work in the real world. I'm reminded of a 'joke' I posted here a number of years ago:

Quote:A worried woman went to her gynecologist and said:
'Doctor, I have a serious problem and desperately need your help! My baby is not even 1 yr. old and I'm pregnant again. I don't want kids so close together.'

So the doctor said: 'Ok, and what do you want me to do?'

She said: 'I want you to end my pregnancy, and I'm counting on your help with this.'

The doctor thought for a little, and after some silence he said to the lady: 'I think I have a better solution for your problem. It's less dangerous for you too.'

She smiled, thinking that the doctor was going to accept her request.

Then he continued: 'You see, in order for you not to have to take care of 2 babies at the same time, let's kill the one in your arms. This way, you could rest some before the other one is born. If we're going to kill one of them, it doesn't matter which one it is. There would be no risk for your body if you chose the one in your arms.

The lady was horrified and said: 'No doctor! How terrible! It's a crime to kill a child!

'I agree', the doctor replied. 'But you seemed to be ok with it, so I thought maybe that was the best solution.

In other words, if, for any reason, the mother doesn't want the child, she'll say, 'Well, it's OK, because his soul will go straight to Heaven anyway',


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Melkite - 08-07-2015

This limbo talk is ridiculous.  It forces God into a nice, logical box from which he must operate according to our understanding.  God is far more mysterious than that.  I mean, think about it.  God is sooooo merciful that he would spare a person from hell who deserves it (even though they can't deserve it because they've done nothing) but is bound to not let them into heaven under any circumstances?  Sounds like he isn't that merciful after all.  Mercy is the antithesis of justice.  The fathers also believed that certain sins demanded exclusion from the sacraments until one's deathbed.  They were wrong about that, they can be wrong about limbo as well.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Credidi Propter - 08-07-2015

(08-06-2015, 04:10 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 02:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 12:39 PM)Steven Wrote: As for the babies themselves, you may be interested in reading two articles written by Msgr. John McCarthy of the Oblates of Wisdom on "Whether Aborted Children Should Be Claimed as Members of the Church":  http://rtforum.org/lt/lt65.html http://rtforum.org/lt/lt71.html

Unfortunately, Traditionally, there are only two possibilities, hell and limbus puerorum . I personally believe in limbo, probably because a) I believe in a merciful God, and b) I lost a brother to a still birth.
That was a good link.  Still, my intention on the thread was to discuss salvation and absolution for women who have had abortions and what their fate will be.

If they made that decision freely, are fully aware of what they were doing, and they are unrepentent, then they are in a state of mortal sin and will go to hell if they die unrepentant of it.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - GangGreen - 08-07-2015

I think what happens to a child who isn't baptized due to the inability to do so and then dies is one of those mysteries that we will never understand until God tells us Himself.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Jeanannemarie - 08-07-2015

It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - GangGreen - 08-07-2015

(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

What is there to discuss? Whether the person is committing murder, abortion, adultery, theft, etc. one must simply look at what the Church teaches.

Any person who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (or not in a state of sanctifying grace) goes to hell. End of story. If a person has an abortion and later they realize how awful what they did was and most of all how offensive it was to God, then they go and confess their sins to a priest and reform their lives to be holy and no longer sin, they can be saved.