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Re: Souls concerning abortion - Papist - 08-07-2015

(08-06-2015, 09:03 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:45 PM)Papist Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 03:07 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 02:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Unfortunately, Traditionally, there are only two possibilities, hell and limbus puerorum . I personally believe in limbo, probably because a) I believe in a merciful God, and b) I lost a brother to a still birth.

Those are the only two possibilities if the child dies in original sin, but dying in original sin is not the only possibility.  In reply to the objection that the sin of Adam reaches farther than the grace of Christ, since original sin can reach into the womb but baptism can't, St. Thomas replied:

"Children while in the mother's womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11
I agree with St. Thomas.

Sorry, but if the Angelic Doctor (and remember, he was wrong on the Immaculate Conception) and Msgr McCarthy are right, you run into the same problem as with the modernist bullcrap that aborted or stillborn babies who die without Baptism go to Heaven. If that's the case, do the little ones a favour and abort them before they can be born and die without the Sacrament and go to limbo if they die before the age of reason, or receive it and then die after the age of reason in a state of mortal sin! At least if they're aborted in the womb they are guaranteed Heaven in either case, which is more than is true of any of us!

Oh, I'm a mondernist now, am I?  :LOL:


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Papist - 08-07-2015

(08-07-2015, 08:09 AM)Melkite Wrote: This limbo talk is ridiculous.  It forces God into a nice, logical box from which he must operate according to our understanding.  God is far more mysterious than that.  I mean, think about it.  God is sooooo merciful that he would spare a person from hell who deserves it (even though they can't deserve it because they've done nothing) but is bound to not let them into heaven under any circumstances?  Sounds like he isn't that merciful after all.  Mercy is the antithesis of justice.  The fathers also believed that certain sins demanded exclusion from the sacraments until one's deathbed.  They were wrong about that, they can be wrong about limbo as well.

God is purely simply. His mercy and justice - which are not like ours - are one and the same.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - jovan66102 - 08-07-2015

(08-07-2015, 05:38 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

What is there to discuss? Whether the person is committing murder, abortion, adultery, theft, etc. one must simply look at what the Church teaches.

Any person who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (or not in a state of sanctifying grace) goes to hell. End of story. If a person has an abortion and later they realize how awful what they did was and most of all how offensive it was to God, then they go and confess their sins to a priest and reform their lives to be holy and no longer sin, they can be saved.
QFT


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Cyriacus - 08-07-2015

Trust in God's goodness. I pray that the victims of abortion, the 57+ million since 1973 in the United States alone, may be united with the Holy Innocents, the Church's first buds of martyrdom.

I don't know what the ultimate destiny of these poor, murdered children will be, but they are the victims of a society, rebelling against Christ, a society  whose murder of children would put the Canaanites to shame. It makes me uncomfortable that I don't know, but the Church's silence in no way constrains God's action.

I wonder if the deaths of these blameless children isn't some grim portent of what is to come, as the little buds plucked by Herod, raging against the advent of the Messiah, presaged a fuller harvest of the flowers of martyrdom. How much more do I deserve death than these children, who are given no protection under the law.

When the persecutors of the faith return, as surely they will, and our children and grandchildren ask us when the terrible bloodletting began, we will not answer "2050" or "2025"---rather, "1973," when iconoclast physicians, with the full endorsement of the law, effaced the image of God from the sanctuary of the womb, cleaving face, brain, and skull with forceps and vacuum. That is when the temple of the human body, so holy in its perfection that Mary received the Incarnate Word in her flesh, was turned into an altar of Baal and Mammon, complete with blood sacrifice.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Acolyte - 08-07-2015

(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

Jeanannemarie, did you not see these:

(08-06-2015, 12:39 PM)Steven Wrote: It's a transgression of natural law which is written on the hearts of all men.  It's terribly grave to go to Hell, yes, but on face value we're talking about a woman who chooses to have murdered her own baby.  At the same time, people may be ignorant of the severity of immorality of acts, and may also act under duress or pressure.  These can be mitigating factors.  It is up to the mercy of God to determine her soul's condition in light of these factors.

(08-06-2015, 06:50 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: It really depends, doesn't it? If those mitigating factors Steven mentioned are at play, if the woman repents, etc.
Its not our place to say a person is going to hell or not, but the situation doesn't look very promising for the modern woman who has chain sex and at the inconvenience of a pregnancy chooses to kill the baby.
Nor for the abortion doctors. Just reading about the stuff they do (I can't watch the videos) it literally makes me sick. What they do is truly diabolical.
I certainly wouldn't want to be in their places.

(08-06-2015, 09:05 PM)Acolyte Wrote: No one deserves the gift of contrition.  Still less do we deserve the perfect contrition which is necessary for the dead soul with no access to sacraments.  But God is merciful.  On the one hand we should not presume on God's mercy, but neither should we despair of it, whether the sin is murder or any other sin.



Re: Souls concerning abortion - xandratax - 08-08-2015

(08-07-2015, 05:38 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

What is there to discuss? Whether the person is committing murder, abortion, adultery, theft, etc. one must simply look at what the Church teaches.

Any person who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (or not in a state of sanctifying grace) goes to hell. End of story. If a person has an abortion and later they realize how awful what they did was and most of all how offensive it was to God, then they go and confess their sins to a priest and reform their lives to be holy and no longer sin, they can be saved.

Well, what if that person happens to be Protestant? What if there is no confession before a priest or sacrament of absolution? Is regret enough to save that person?


Re: Souls concerning abortion - formerbuddhist - 08-08-2015

Somehow I don't sit and worry about all this, I mean, God will save who He wills to save. In the Western tradition Limbo is very well attested but the modern official catechism doesn't explicitly give credence to it. We ought to pray for all men no matter what,including those they are killed in the womb. Perhaps God infuses in these young souls some sort of Divine Vision of Himself that they can't refuse so that they are sanctified and saved, who knows? Better to not presume anything definitive, but instead to hope.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Jeanannemarie - 08-08-2015

(08-08-2015, 03:39 AM)xandratax Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:38 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

What is there to discuss? Whether the person is committing murder, abortion, adultery, theft, etc. one must simply look at what the Church teaches.

Any person who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (or not in a state of sanctifying grace) goes to hell. End of story. If a person has an abortion and later they realize how awful what they did was and most of all how offensive it was to God, then they go and confess their sins to a priest and reform their lives to be holy and no longer sin, they can be saved.

Well, what if that person happens to be Protestant? What if there is no confession before a priest or sacrament of absolution? Is regret enough to save that person?
Yes, finally someone has appeared to understand what I was saying.  Thank you.  The consequences of sin are obvious to me, but my point is, that I don't hear any argument to persuade women not to commit mortal sin and damning their souls or any ministering to the women (besides inside the RC Church) to repent so they can be saved, and exactly, for those who are not Catholic.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - formerbuddhist - 08-08-2015

Today in the RC Church the idea is rampant that sincerity saves no matter whether one is Protestant, Jew, atheist or whatever. Many look at fellow Christians especially as already on a path to salvation. Repentance is really just following ones conscience and living out ones belief in Allah, Nirvana, Science, Humanity or the Tao, its all the same thing. This idea of implicit baptism of desire is damnable and the source of this non chalance about evangelization, this evil notion of being able to be saved without any explicit relation to or knowledge of Jesus Christ. There is precious little in scripture or the Fathers that supports this idea that one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, especially since the coming of of Our Lord.


I suppose another reason there is no call for repentance on the part of the women is because it's seen as distasteful to come down too hard on someone after they have already had the abortion. It's seen by the secular types as superstitious and psychologically damaging nonsense to try to guilt trip someone into repentance and faith in something there is zero proof of according to the standards of modern philosophy and the scientific method.

Where I stand is that I do not believe in implicit baptism of desire if by it one means one can, without ever having known Jesus Christ,  be saved. God can in the moments before death give someone a divine vision of Himself and the person can make acts of Faith, Hope and Charity and be justified, sanctified and saved. Maybe this even happens in the womb with babies about to be killed in an abortion. I just do not accept that after Pentecost there is any possible way anyone could live and die without ever even being given a chance ( through a missionary, an angel or a direct divine vision) to accept Our Lord and be saved. Seems like this avoids both Feenyism and the gross indifferenism that some versions of implicit baptism of desire inevitably lead to.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - dcmaccabees - 08-08-2015

(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

I have very little compassion for a woman who murders her child or for anyone who enables them to do so.  How, exactly, is a woman who butchers or allows to be butchered her unborn infant any different than Andrea Yates?  Is it that the murder occurs in a doctor's office rather than in a bathtub?  I'm sure that Mrs. Yates feels sorry that she murdered her children one after another, that she was just "trying to make the best of a difficult situation"...

Yes, these women (like all murderers) should repent.  But why does there need to be a special "call to repent" for them?  Why should they receive special attention when, say, an embezzler or a rapist does not?  I mean, I've never heard of people carrying "I regret my armed robbery" signs or a special "Mass for Child Abusers". Why the impulse to give these murderers quasi-victim status?