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Re: Souls concerning abortion - GangGreen - 08-08-2015

(08-08-2015, 03:39 AM)xandratax Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:38 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-07-2015, 05:12 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: It frustrates me that this thread is all about the soul of the unborn, when if you would read my original post, I was trying to direct the conversation to the danger of the souls of the women who had abortions and that I never hear any cries of "Repent" in all the arguments for pro-life.  Bbut that is what I wanted to talk about;  t he fact that many woman may be damning their souls, and it is not addressed anywhere that I see.

What is there to discuss? Whether the person is committing murder, abortion, adultery, theft, etc. one must simply look at what the Church teaches.

Any person who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (or not in a state of sanctifying grace) goes to hell. End of story. If a person has an abortion and later they realize how awful what they did was and most of all how offensive it was to God, then they go and confess their sins to a priest and reform their lives to be holy and no longer sin, they can be saved.

Well, what if that person happens to be Protestant? What if there is no confession before a priest or sacrament of absolution? Is regret enough to save that person?

Well, then that gets into the whole topic of if any Protestant can even be saved without the Sacrament of Confession. Can a Protestant that commits any mortal sin be saved by just contrition?


Re: Souls concerning abortion - xandratax - 08-09-2015

(08-08-2015, 12:44 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-08-2015, 03:39 AM)xandratax Wrote: Well, what if that person happens to be Protestant? What if there is no confession before a priest or sacrament of absolution? Is regret enough to save that person?

Well, then that gets into the whole topic of if any Protestant can even be saved without the Sacrament of Confession. Can a Protestant that commits any mortal sin be saved by just contrition?

It says in the Catechism:

A baptized Protestant, of Protestant parents, lives all his life a Protestant without ever having a doubt that he is in the wrong. Before death he makes an act of perfect contrition for the sins he has committed. Such a man will be saved, for he dies in the state of grace.

Considering that many Protestants don't view foetuses as human beings, we could even debate if they've committed mortal sins or not. At least according to the Catechism, which says the sinner must be 'mindful of the serious wrong.'


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Jeanannemarie - 08-09-2015

Some good comments, finally.  Thank you.  GangGreen said it all, because that really was what I was wondering about, the fact that all do not have the benefit of the Sacraments.  As far as what Xandratax said about the baptized Protestants and the catechism,  it makes me wonder which catechism.  I must look up in the "old" catechism what it has to say as compared to the new one.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - GangGreen - 08-09-2015

(08-09-2015, 01:16 AM)xandratax Wrote:
(08-08-2015, 12:44 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(08-08-2015, 03:39 AM)xandratax Wrote: Well, what if that person happens to be Protestant? What if there is no confession before a priest or sacrament of absolution? Is regret enough to save that person?

Well, then that gets into the whole topic of if any Protestant can even be saved without the Sacrament of Confession. Can a Protestant that commits any mortal sin be saved by just contrition?

It says in the Catechism:

A baptized Protestant, of Protestant parents, lives all his life a Protestant without ever having a doubt that he is in the wrong. Before death he makes an act of perfect contrition for the sins he has committed. Such a man will be saved, for he dies in the state of grace.

Considering that many Protestants don't view foetuses as human beings, we could even debate if they've committed mortal sins or not. At least according to the Catechism, which says the sinner must be 'mindful of the serious wrong.'

I wonder if such a phrasing is present in any Catechisms prior to VII and its super ecumenism.  Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - xandratax - 08-09-2015

(08-09-2015, 10:06 AM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: Some good comments, finally.  Thank you.  GangGreen said it all, because that really was what I was wondering about, the fact that all do not have the benefit of the Sacraments.  As far as what Xandratax said about the baptized Protestants and the catechism,  it makes me wonder which catechism.  I must look up in the "old" catechism what it has to say as compared to the new one.

That is from the 'old' Catechism. It's from My Catholic Faith: A Catechism in Pictures, from 1949/54, which is derived from the Baltimore catechism. The one that I have is a reprint from the SSPX Sarto House. It was given to me by an SSPX priest. I looked it up and this catechism is apparently as orthodox as they get.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - Jeanannemarie - 08-10-2015

Thanks, Xandratax I looked it up too, and it leads me right back to my questions on  ecumenism and the "reasonable hope that all are saved" argument.  All of it makes me want to stick to the old teachings that are hard and clear.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - xandratax - 08-10-2015

(08-10-2015, 11:01 AM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: Thanks, Xandratax I looked it up too, and it leads me right back to my questions on  ecumenism and the "reasonable hope that all are saved" argument.  All of it makes me want to stick to the old teachings that are hard and clear.

While heaven is cleary Catholic, and people are only saved by Jesus, let's not forget that Saint Dismas, the 'good thief' and the first saint, wasn't even baptized. (At least, it remains unknown, if he was or not.) Church teaching leads us thus to the 'baptism of desire,' in such a case where a perfect act of contrition is made by a non-Christian. That's at least what I've gathered so far, from orthodox readings.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - formerbuddhist - 08-10-2015

(08-10-2015, 11:36 AM)xandratax Wrote:
(08-10-2015, 11:01 AM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: Thanks, Xandratax I looked it up too, and it leads me right back to my questions on  ecumenism and the "reasonable hope that all are saved" argument.  All of it makes me want to stick to the old teachings that are hard and clear.

While heaven is cleary Catholic, and people are only saved by Jesus, let's not forget that Saint Dismas, the 'good thief' and the first saint, wasn't even baptized. (At least, it remains unknown, if he was or not.) Church teaching leads us thus to the 'baptism of desire,' in such a case where a perfect act of contrition is made by a non-Christian. That's at least what I've gathered so far, from orthodox readings.

St Dismas died before the Resurrection and before Pentecost but he explicitly knew Jesus Christ. He was a sinner who made a lot of mistakes who was given the profound graces to die next to Our Lord with both St. John and the Holy Virgin Mary under and near his own cross. This is something mysterious. I would hesitate to call it baptism of desire though,since baptism as a sacrament did not yet exist. St. Dismas had the grace to recognize Jesus Christ explicitly,in the flesh, for who He was and He repented and put his faith in Him. 

Modern Protestants and Orthodox have explicit faith in Jesus Christ and so are in some way able to be saved through an act of sincere repentance. The same thing cannot be said of atheists, post temple jews,hindus or muslims, none of whom know Jesus Christ in any explicit way.

He can ( and I pray He does) give them some sort of divine vision and opportunity to accept Him, but without this knowledge of Jesus Christ they cannot be saved. Jesus Christ is not hidden behind the feeling of awe in the face of particle physics, a misguided belief in Vishnu, Buddha Nature or the Allah of the koran but only in Himself,true God and true man. In this we shouldn't lose sleep though, as He is merciful and desires that all men be saved. He will grant the graced needed to all men to be able to make that choice for or against Him even if it is in a deathbed vision unseen to outside observers.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - GangGreen - 08-10-2015

Of course I've also read that for one to make a perfect act of contrition under the conditions of death, if one has never made one before, to be quite rare since one typically wouldn't be in a state of mind to do so except out of duress.


Re: Souls concerning abortion - xandratax - 08-11-2015

(08-10-2015, 06:09 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: St Dismas died before the Resurrection and before Pentecost but he explicitly knew Jesus Christ. He was a sinner who made a lot of mistakes who was given the profound graces to die next to Our Lord with both St. John and the Holy Virgin Mary under and near his own cross. This is something mysterious. I would hesitate to call it baptism of desire though,since baptism as a sacrament did not yet exist. St. Dismas had the grace to recognize Jesus Christ explicitly,in the flesh, for who He was and He repented and put his faith in Him. 

Modern Protestants and Orthodox have explicit faith in Jesus Christ and so are in some way able to be saved through an act of sincere repentance. The same thing cannot be said of atheists, post temple jews,hindus or muslims, none of whom know Jesus Christ in any explicit way.

He can ( and I pray He does) give them some sort of divine vision and opportunity to accept Him, but without this knowledge of Jesus Christ they cannot be saved. Jesus Christ is not hidden behind the feeling of awe in the face of particle physics, a misguided belief in Vishnu, Buddha Nature or the Allah of the koran but only in Himself,true God and true man. In this we shouldn't lose sleep though, as He is merciful and desires that all men be saved. He will grant the graced needed to all men to be able to make that choice for or against Him even if it is in a deathbed vision unseen to outside observers.

I'm just weary of this because it reminds me too much of the Baptist 'Jesus saves' thing. I've been 'saved' at Baptist church camp, when I was kid and we were all crying in the chapel and all. But it doesn't mean anything, it's just an emotional frenzy, there's almost no contrition involved whatsoever. It's just important that 'Jesus comes into your heart!' Which means....? You weep and shout Hallelujah because you're 'saved'. From what I understand, Catholics take a much more sober (for lack of a better word) approach. Any person who is contrite and asks God for forgiveness has achieved faith in Jesus. Because only the Son forgives. You imagine that a non-Christian begging forgiveness thinks that comes from Allah, or Vishnu or whoever? They know that those are not gods of forgiveness, but the yearning for divine forgiveness itself is a Christian gift of grace to every man, even the unbaptized. Maybe they don't 'know' Jesus in the way that a baptized Christian does, but in contrition and asking God's forgiveness, they have achieved supernatural Christian faith. If such a person dies in that state, but is unbaptized, it's hard for to believe that they would go to Hell. Maybe they go to Limbo, or if they really do obtain baptism of desire, they go to Purgatory for a long while, who knows? But it seems very unmerciful that they'd be sent to Hell. (And I don't mean every non-Christian, but those who are supernaturally moved to seek forgiveness.)

We can all be jealous of Dismas because he actually saw Jesus face to face, but the Church also teaches us that even those who suffer from 'spiritual dryness' are not forsaken. I am weary of saying that I 'know Jesus in a explicit way.' Some of us are Christians because it makes sense and because we respect and love the Truth, much of which is mysterious. For some of us that is as 'explicit' as it gets.