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sin and Novus Ordo? - little_flower10 - 12-25-2015

So its Christmas and basically I'm having a crisis of faith of some sort. I should first say I'm a traditional Catholic, I attend an FSSP parish. Also I have scruples which complicates things when I have to figure out difficult questions. I pretty much almost always attend the TLM. Sometimes though when I visit family I'm unable to, and then I've went to the Novus Ordo to fulfill my obligation. I never had a priest tell me otherwise. I have always seen that as bring obedient. In the Novus Ordo, sometimes I see things that make me upset so I tried to treat the Mass very reverently to counter that and give reparation. For the record I'm with the FSSP in seeing the NO as valid. It doesn't mean there's nothing needing improvement of course. Recently I found out that some trad Catholics believe in staying at home in this situation. Upon doing some research I came across some information - they might believe this because 1) they see the NO as having doubtful validity, and 2) they see the actions of people there as containing sacrilige, and so believe its a sin to be there. Furthermore I read they believe its a sin to act reverently because that gives the impression that its pleasing to God. My first response to 1) was - validity depends on priests intentions and the priests I know don't seem to have questionable intentions, so its not doubtful. However missing Mass is more of a risk and the Sunday obligation is pretty clear. But the second point really confused me. If some irreverence occurs but I don't will it, the people with this view would say I'm still sinning by being there? But what am I supposed to do, miss Mass on Sunday? Furthermore they would say all my acts of reparation have been sinful? But the intrinsic merit of the Mass is still infinite, regardless of what the extrinsic merit is. Jesus is still on the Altar. He is certainly pleasing to the Father and He is Who I'm honouring. I just feel so confused now and all the light and consolation I had in my soul is gone. I can't figure it out and I'm scared of sinning which ever way I think
I don't want to be disobedient to the Church either. I do think the NO is valid, and in itself it is a Mass with intrinsic infinite merit. The Church approved it so its not invalid. Maybe its not good to choose it over a TLM as its more reverent. But going to NO is not my first choice.

Any help? :(


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - DeoDuce - 12-25-2015

Going to an NO does in fact fulfill your obligation and it is better to go to NO then to skip mass entirely. Some NO masses are better then others. My home parish for example doesn't have a whole bunch of abuse but it's still not great.

It sounds like you read some sedevac stuff to me.


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Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - In His Love - 12-25-2015

"Recently I found out that some trad Catholics believe in staying at home in this situation. Upon doing some research I came across some information - they might believe this because 1) they see the NO as having doubtful validity, and 2) they see the actions of people there as containing sacrilige, and so believe its a sin to be there."

Like you said, the NO is entirely valid. Jesus is present on the altar once the proper prayers have been said (along with the proper matter and intention, of course). It's a mortal sin to miss a valid Catholic Mass on Sunday and other holy days of obligation unless you have a valid reason to miss Mass, and I think these "home alone" types are treading on some very dangerous ground.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - Bourbon Apocalypse - 12-25-2015

Let's review what you have said:

--you  attend an FSSP parish, a society that views the novus ordo Mass as valid
--you yourself believe that the novus ordo Mass is valid
--you have never had a priest (I assume an FSSP priest) tell you otherwise
--you trust the intentions of the novus ordo priests whom you know
--your Mass obligations are clear.

Sounds like you know what you should do. As one who has only the novus ordo Mass available (unless I want to drive several hours one way) but has assisted at Latin Masses, I sympathize with you.  Yes, there are trads somewhere out there on the Internet who disagree with you, but so what? Are they going to be assisting Jesus at your particular and general judgments? Of course not--though they may think so.

As someone who has struggled with scrupulosity, I know how debilitating this sickness can be. It's purgatory on earth, no doubt about it. Please see a good trad priest about this. In the meantime, the God Who became man because He loves you more than you can imagine and Who wants you to be saved more than you want to be saved  is waiting for you in a manger.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - Leonhard - 12-25-2015

I think unless you could honestly say that participating in the new form of the mass puts you in danger of grave spiritual harm, then the most proper course of action is to participate in such a mass.

We do have some 'stay at home' Catholics here. One of them I know is very conscious of the facts that this puts them at odds with the Sunday obligation and is conflicted about them. Judging them is hard to do, though I am concerned for them and I certainly don't think they should be flaunting this fact in conversation as if its a normal and good thing to do, and without awareness that they might cause scandal.

On the other hand the Sunday mass obligation was given for our benefit, and so if it is truly spiritually harmful to attend one, then that might be enough to excuse someone. However I wouldn't feel comfortable making that decision. It would have to be an act of love, and not merely pride.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - Poche - 12-25-2015

I think you should stop listening to those people.

One of the most important foundations of tradition in the Catholic church is communion with the Holy Father. It is ok if we don't understand everything. Who really does? It is "obedience, not sacrifices" which please God. Respect for the Holy Father, attendance at Catholic Mass, these are which please God. we are Catholics with a capital "C" We are not Novus Ordo vs Extraordinaty Form. The fact that you have recognized that you have a problem with scrupulosity is an indicator of where you are. So far from what you have told us it looks like you are doing the right thing. Work with your confessor. On those occasions when we can't go to the mass that we prefer, it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo. I understand that even leaders of the resistance to a reconciliation such as Bishop Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo when you are unable to go to the TLM. When you go to the Novus Ordo and you see something that upsets you what I recommend is to focus on the reason why we are going  to mass anyway. We are going to have an encounter with Jesus. Jesus' love for youis so great that he is willing to come through the confusion that you see a the Novus Ordo in order to be with you. A similar situation happened with St Teresa of Avila and a priest who was in the state of mortal sin. Jesus appeared to her and said" Behold, my love for you is so great that I am willing to pass through the filth that is this priest's hands in order to be with you. If you make the sacrifice in going to the Novus Ordo when you are unable to go to the TLM then you will be doing something very pleasing to God.   


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - CaptCrunch73 - 12-25-2015

(12-25-2015, 03:50 AM)Bourbon Apocalypse Wrote: Let's review what you have said:

--you  attend an FSSP parish, a society that views the novus ordo Mass as valid
--you yourself believe that the novus ordo Mass is valid
--you have never had a priest (I assume an FSSP priest) tell you otherwise
--you trust the intentions of the novus ordo priests whom you know
--your Mass obligations are clear.

Sounds like you know what you should do. As one who has only the novus ordo Mass available (unless I want to drive several hours one way) but has assisted at Latin Masses, I sympathize with you.  Yes, there are trads somewhere out there on the Internet who disagree with you, but so what? Are they going to be assisting Jesus at your particular and general judgments? Of course not--though they may think so.

As someone who has struggled with scrupulosity, I know how debilitating this sickness can be. It's purgatory on earth, no doubt about it. Please see a good trad priest about this. In the meantime, the God Who became man because He loves you more than you can imagine and Who wants you to be saved more than you want to be saved  is waiting for you in a manger.

This ^^^^

Do not worry about the polemics among traditionalists. Go with your gut little flower.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - formerbuddhist - 12-25-2015

I'd have to agree with Poche on this one. If there is only a new rite Mass around than in order to fulfill your Sunday obligation you ought to attend it unless it's something really horrible and abusive. The Pauline Liturgy is the official Roman Rite, and  altar girls, Marty Haugen tunes and hordes of EMHC's are all offensive to Trads yet perfectly allowable and do not invalidate the Mass. 

I've struggled with this stuff over the years even enough to be a home aloner by choice for long periods of time, but it got to the point where I realized that if I actually believe that the modern hierarchy and the modern pope have real authority than I cannot for any reason reject outright what they consider to be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Barring acceptance of the sedvacantist thesis or one of its offshoots being a home aloner when there are actually options is probably mortally sinful.

If you actually have options for chapels that are associated with the diocese and whose priests are in full and lawful communion with the hierarchy than it would seem to me that the only reasonable and obedient Catholic choice would be to attend there. Personally I know a handful of priests in the new rite that are really good and seemingly holy men who do the best they can. Some of these men are excellent confessors as well. 

All in all this stuff is a huge cross to bear. Oftentimes the liturgy is so banal in the new rite, but I can tell you at least for me that even just going and standing in the back and praying I feel that there is grace there. I've never really liked the new rite but there is grace there.

Of course if your only options are really horrible chapels where the priest ad libs the Mass, allows laymen to stand at the altar during the consecration or who gives really awful blatantly heretical sermons than by all means stay home. My experience with the new rite is that it's usually just bland, there's nothing blatantly heretical there, it's just dull.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - Renatus Frater - 12-25-2015

Firstly, don't believe what every pious sounding internet trad says--even on this forum. Chances are they don't know what they're talking about.

One out of many examples is the confusion in your post about sinning when at a irreverent Mass. Its a sin for the priest and people who participate in the abuse, if they knowingly depart from the rubrics. It might be a sin if you consent to the abuse, but St. Thomas says that, at least, one deprives oneself from the graces of the sacrament if one knowingly consents to the abuses. Below there's a link explaining this according to St. Thomas.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/11/how-sinful-is-it-to-disregard-rubrics.html?m=1

But you should ask your spiritual director, as he might explain things in the details you require. Meanwhile, I believe your first conviction was right and not sinful at all. Many of the home aloners are some sort of crypto-gnostics (I cannot elaborate this at the moment), and I wouldn't say all are in sin, but they are treading on dangerous ground.


Re: sin and Novus Ordo? - GangGreen - 12-25-2015

Well, I guess if you want, after your NO Mass, you can watch TLM online. It's not the same, but it's something:

http://www.livemass.net/LiveMass/suisse.html
Mass starts around 30:50 in. It's a little choppy for the first ten minutes.

http://www.livemass.net/LiveMass/espanol.html
Here's the one from Mexico. It's all done with candle light, which is nice, but hard to see at times.