FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Church (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Forum: Catholicism (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris (/showthread.php?tid=78946)

Pages: 1 2


Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - Credidi Propter - 06-28-2017

Just saw Brandon Vogt (Bp. Robert Barron's stooge) post this on Facebook. Just wondering what people here thought...


"And with this article Michael Voris has taken the leap from misinformed to indefensibly wicked.

He actually compares Bishop Robert Barron to an infestation of cockroaches.

(Students of history will note what typically follows when ANY person or group is likened to a cockroach. I can hardly think of a more dehumanizing insult.)

I hope we all agree that slander is always unjustified, even when you disagree with someone. If you think they are wrong, show how they erred. Be specific. Propose counterarguments. Use reason. Pursue truth in charity. Don't just bloviate insults.

This brother needs our prayers; join me in praying for him. Michael is clearly in a dark place. I'm sure he loves his faith. I'm sure he thinks he's defending the Church. But his increasingly deranged attacks reveal a very disturbed man. I'm genuinely concerned for him.

And please pray for his followers, too. Like Michael, these are mostly people of good faith who want to promote and defend Truth, but they've been misled. A quick peek into any of Michael's comment boxes--which are wrongly promoted as "the #1 most commented on Catholic website"--confirms that his rabid followers are, in many ways, even worse than him. I'm routinely shocked at the level of vitriol his ministry not only allows but inflames through its forums. The comments I read at Church Militant are, in many cases, MORE savage than the comments I read on Buzzfeed, HuffPost, and atheist sites!

(For just a taste, read the comments on this Luther article. But fair warning: they're nasty.)

Of course, the deep irony in today's attack is that Voris' wailings against Bishop Barron sound eerily similar in tone to Luther's writings against Catholicism. Their language is equally wild, vitriolic, exaggerated, enraged, and yet mostly devoid of substance.

I understand why some people support Michael Voris, including some dear friends of mine. He's a man of ardor who thinks he's defending the Catholic faith. I admire his passion and tenacity.

But I'd warn all Catholics: stay clear of this man, for your own sake.

He's a fomenter of rage. He will not lead you to virtue. He will not help you imbibe the Beatitudes. He will not produce in you more "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Gal 5:22-23.) His fruits are just the opposite.

Jesus says, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Mt 7:18).

Reflect on the fruit of Michael's ministry and ask yourself what type of tree he represents.

May the Lord help this brother and his many followers and provide them much needed grace and peace.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-martin-luther-bishop-barron

UPDATE: I originally said that Michael compared Bishop Barron to both an infestation of cockroaches and a child molester. I've been corrected, as it seems the child molester comparison was directed toward Luther, and not Bishop Barron. Mea culpa! I'm not sure that dampens the slander, but at least it redirects it."


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - In His Love - 06-29-2017

What Michael Voris said was accurate. No one should defend or praise Luther. These weird positions held by Bishop Barron are worse than cockroaches, honestly. "We have a reasonable hope that all men are saved"? Come on.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - JosefSilouan - 06-29-2017

(06-28-2017, 10:06 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: Of course, the deep irony in today's attack is that Voris' wailings against Bishop Barron sound eerily similar in tone to Luther's writings against Catholicism. Their language is equally wild, vitriolic, exaggerated, enraged, and yet mostly devoid of substance.

Actually, I have to agree with Mr Vogt on this point. Although some of Barron's recent statements were problematic, he didn't say anything clearly untrue or heretical. A brotherly correction might be justified, but not his kind of aggressive slander.



(06-29-2017, 01:24 AM)In His Love Wrote: These weird positions held by Bishop Barron are worse than cockroaches, honestly. "We have a reasonable hope that all men are saved"? Come on.

Some months ago, I actually took the time to read Balthasar's book. It's not as bad as it is made out to be. I couldn't detect any outright heresy in it. He clearly rejects the heresies of Universalism and Apokatastasis.

So, what is Balthasar's point in a nutshell? Peter Kreeft sums it up this way:


Quote:The question is "Do we dare to hope that all men will be saved". Part of his answer was that we are commanded to hope for that, and to pray for that. The prayer that Mary gave to the children at Fatima was: "Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy." If we are to pray for it, we must hope for it. Of course, a hope isn't a guarantee, and there are very strong scriptural and traditional reasons to believe that not all will be saved.

Imagine you have a atheist, sinful friend who comitts suicide by blowing his brains out with a gun. It's not reasonable to assume that he had time to repent. Would you pray for him? Vorris might answer: No, he is damned anyway. Hope is not reasonable in this case. Balthasar/Barron would answer: Yes, we are commanded to hope and to pray for his salvation. There is no such thing as "too much hope". Honestly, I would pray for the suicidal friend and I would not deem it 'unreasonable'.


Concerning Luther: It makes me cringe to see how contemporary Catholics are praising Luther. In many German NO parrishes, the priests now frequently quote him in their homilies. That's a really bad development. And Barron just contributed to this development. However, we have to admit that he didn't state anything obviously untrue (as far as I can judge). While Luther still was a Catholic, he wrote some very good things. I guess Barron just applies the ancient Evangelization strategy: when talking with a possible convert, affirm everything that is true in his current worldview. Then show him that Catholicism contains even more truth. "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22)". This way, he certainly made many more converts than Vorris did. That said, I'd really prefer Catholic dignitaries would stop presenting Luther as a role model :-/


Concerning Brandon Vogt: I have read some of his stuff and he seems to be a very conservative, traditional Catholic (member of Opus Dei). We are in a Culture war right now, and he is definitely not our enemy in this war.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - JosefSilouan - 06-29-2017

Just as an aside, in case you missed it: two years ago Vorris started a war against the Remnant and the SSPX.




So, Church Militant is bashing decent traditionalists like the guys at the Remanant and the SSPX on the one side and decent 'neo-conservatives' in the tradition of JPII on the other side. This rises the question: who is left, besides Vorris himself? :-)

I do appreciate a lot of what Church Militant does, but this kind of inner-Catholic civil war really turns me off.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - Estevao - 06-29-2017

Anything that Voris has ever said doesn't compare to the foul mouth of that "mystic of grace". 

http://ergofabulous.org/luther/

It just reminds me of a rorate caeli post I read once: modern ecumenism seems to consist solely of praising heretics like the wretched Luther and the murderous tinpot dictator of Geneva Calvin and mentioning nothing about actual reformers like De Sales, D'Avila, Bellarmine etc.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - Credidi Propter - 06-29-2017

(06-29-2017, 12:28 PM)Estevao Wrote: Anything that Voris has ever said doesn't compare to the foul mouth of that "mystic of grace". 

http://ergofabulous.org/luther/

It just reminds me of a rorate caeli post I read once: modern ecumenism seems to consist solely of praising heretics like the wretched Luther and the murderous tinpot dictator of Geneva Calvin and mentioning nothing about actual reformers like De Sales, D'Avila, Bellarmine etc.


Hoping and desiring are not the same thing. Hope brings with it some kind of expectation, and "reasonable hope" most especially does. In charity, we must desire that all be saved. At the same time, however, we know from scripture, Catholic theology, and the writings of saints that this makes no sense. The Church has never formally declared someone to be in hell, but it's a big leap to go from that to presuming that no one is in hell.

I admit Michael Voris is pretty harsh at times. He lived a very sinful life for a long time, and the Church wasn't there for him when it should have been. I'd be harsh too under those circumstances.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - In His Love - 06-29-2017

"A brotherly correction might be justified, but not his kind of aggressive slander."

Where is the slander? He was correct in saying that those three statements were not good. No one should call Luther "a mystic of grace." In this day and age where people want to sweep the differences between Catholics and Protestants under the rug in the name of [false] ecumenism, we need to be blunt about who Luther was and what damage he did.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - JosefSilouan - 06-30-2017

(06-29-2017, 03:05 PM)In His Love Wrote: "A brotherly correction might be justified, but not his kind of aggressive slander."

Where is the slander? He was correct in saying that those three statements were not good. No one should call Luther "a mystic of grace." In this day and age where people want to sweep the differences between Catholics and Protestants under the rug in the name of [false] ecumenism, we need to be blunt about who Luther was and what damage he did.

To sum it up:

1. A Catholic bishop shouldn't praise an outspoken enemy of the Church as a 'mystic of grace'.

2. A Catholic layman shouldn't call a Catholic bishop 'imbecilic', 'duplicitous' or 'infested with cockroaches'.

Can we all agree on that? :-)


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - GangGreen - 06-30-2017

(06-29-2017, 03:47 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: Just as an aside, in case you missed it: two years ago Vorris started a war against the Remnant and the SSPX.




So, Church Militant is bashing decent traditionalists like the guys at the Remanant and the SSPX on the one side and decent 'neo-conservatives' in the tradition of JPII on the other side. This rises the question: who is left, besides Vorris himself? :-)

I do appreciate a lot of what Church Militant does, but this kind of inner-Catholic civil war really turns me off.
This was around the time I stopped visiting CM regularly. Voris seems to think that he's the most educated and well informed of all the voices on the Catholic internet and that anyone who has a different point of view is wrong. Thing is that there are many smarter and well informed people who have been at it for much longer.


RE: Brandon Vogt/Bp. Barron and Michael Voris - Guingamp - 06-30-2017

(06-29-2017, 03:47 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: (...)
So, Church Militant is bashing decent traditionalists like the guys at the Remanant and the SSPX on the one side and decent 'neo-conservatives' in the tradition of JPII on the other side. This rises the question: who is left, besides Vorris himself? :-)

I do appreciate a lot of what Church Militant does, but this kind of inner-Catholic civil war really turns me off.
I agree and personally I do not like Michael Vorris. He seems to be a bit too self-satisfied. However, here he is absolutely right and I would also support the vehemence of the language. There is a tendency in the church to "canonize" Luther and here the resistance cannot be too radical. Luther was an arch-heretic and his whole theology is absolutely wicked.