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Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Printable Version

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Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Imperator Caesar Trump - 02-19-2018

Hoping someone can answer this for me from the perspective of a nonbeliever; it's not a question that bothers or concerns me.  I hear it asked a lot though.  It kinda plays to the tension/mystery of the coexistence of predestination and free will.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - jovan66102 - 02-20-2018

Free will is, of course, the answer. As to the predestination angle, the best explanation that I've ever read was from C.S. Lewis. He said that man, in his limited perception of time and eternity, is confused about predestination. We see it as God deciding that a soul is going to hell in the future. In reality, he points out, God is outside time, and what he sees is every moral choice we make at the same instant. Being omniscient he sees our final choice before we are even born. He doesn't make that choice for us, but he sees it and foreknows it.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - MagisterMusicae - 02-20-2018

This is just one more iteration of that long-tired discussion about "The Problem of Evil", or "The Problem of Pain" or Theodicy.

It is always presented as a false dilemma  : Either there is Evil or there is a Good God. 

If you deny the existence of evil, then you admit God, but also deny reality. If you admit evil, you deny the existence of God.

The solution is St. Augustine's. Evil is not a thing, it is a nothing—evil is the lack of a due good—the lack of some good which should exist, and thus is a non-being.

A physical evil is the lack of the existence of a thing. A moral evil is the lack of the existence of a right order in the Will.

If you do not have food, and are starving, that is a physical evil, because you are lacking something necessary—a due good. This may have no moral character to it at all, or it may be due to the fault of someone.

A physical evil can be the cause of a greater good, and can help perfect the whole. For instance you killing a deer to eat is a physical evil for the deer, but perfects you. Such evil can be directly will by God, for the greater good that comes.

If you decide to kill someone with a gun, you actually have to have a series of good things first. You have to have a good gun, and a good shooter, and a good bullet, and a good shot. The evil is in the will of the killer, which is knowingly and purposefully turned away from the right order of things. That is a moral evil.

Such evils are not at all willed by God, but allowed by Him.

Both, and.

The other thing to consider is that God's knowledge of a thing does not create a necessity. Just because God knows that a particular person, despite having been given sufficient graces to save his soul which he will reject, and thus will end up in Hell, that does not in any way create a lack of freedom in the man.

Does the fact that you know (since your brother said he would call you at 6 pm) that your brother will call, create a necessity in him? No, it was his promise to call. Your knowledge does not affect him. The same with God. God's knowledge or a future event does not remove my free will.

The problem is that the non-believer will not admit the idea that God gives every man until his last breath enough grace to convert, such that when he rejects this he does so aware of the consequences, and at fault for his refusal. An equivalent would be to have a miracle drug that the doctor offers constantly which will save you from death, but you continually refuse to take it.

In the case of God, the knowledge of the doctor that the patient will refuse the drug to his dying breath does not force the patient to refuse, nor does it represent some insufficiency on the part of the doctor toward the patient. The doctor freely and repeatedly offered the drug, and it was refused.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - meadjodha - 02-20-2018

(02-19-2018, 11:45 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Hoping someone can answer this for me from the perspective of a nonbeliever; it's not a question that bothers or concerns me.  I hear it asked a lot though.  It kinda plays to the tension/mystery of the coexistence of predestination and free will.
God does not want people to go to hell.  He desires that all men be saved.  However, God does not force us to love Him.  We have free will to choose blessings and cursings, life and death.  If someone goes to hell it is their own choice because they have refused to love God and neighbor.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - FultonFan - 02-20-2018

(02-19-2018, 11:45 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Hoping someone can answer this for me from the perspective of a nonbeliever; it's not a question that bothers or concerns me.  I hear it asked a lot though.  It kinda plays to the tension/mystery of the coexistence of predestination and free will.

The people that "are going to Hell" are those that die in mortal sin.  They have committed a grave sin in the eyes of God, with full consent of their will, and have not sought the necessary Sacraments (namely Penance and Extreme Unction) to remedy their eternal punishment.  Sin is an act of the will.  God hates sin, and would never force one's will to engage in a gravely sinful act.  Such a suggestion is a serious blasphemy.  (In fact, incidentally, the whole question is one you'd typically find posed to Calvinists, seeing as the only logical conclusion from Calvinism is that some people are predestined for Hell.  Calvinists can try to explain it away so that that isn't the case, but that's absolutely what Calvinism logically teaches). 

Again, God does not create anyone for Hell.  When we commit mortal sin, we make ourselves unsuitable for Hell, and are then discarded by God to the punishments of Hell. 

That's what makes Hell so painful; apart from the pain of sense (torture by fire), there's the conscious awareness that things could have been much different, and that they wasted their chance at eternal happiness in seeking their vain pleasures from creatures.  We have some foretaste of this in this life when we see our projects or plans destroyed before our eyes.  The things we'd hoped or planned for suddenly come crashing down in one situation or another.  Now, imagine one's fate being the fate of Hell.  Imagine the profound sense of loss and sorrow in knowing that things didn't have to be this way, and that they COULD have gone to Heaven if they'd just avoided their sins, and sought God in the Sacraments.  Imagine the loss of a soul leaving the body, and then finding itself in front of the pure beauty and love of Christ in the judgement seat, only to hear the verdict rendered that their soul has failed in its purpose, and that it will be sent to Hell.  I think it's only then that the soul TRULY realizes what "separation from God" even means.  It's a realization that all the love and happiness it ever knew on Earth was a gift from Almighty God.  And now, having rejected God's grace in committing mortal sin, the soul experiencing that terrible experience of losing Heaven, and being lost to Hell.

The Calvinist version of all this is utterly bizarre.  You just have people going to Hell because they weren't the lottery winners of being elected for Heaven.  It makes the whole idea of the Judgement absurd.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Melkite - 02-20-2018

(02-19-2018, 11:45 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Hoping someone can answer this for me from the perspective of a nonbeliever; it's not a question that bothers or concerns me.  I hear it asked a lot though.  It kinda plays to the tension/mystery of the coexistence of predestination and free will.

From the perspective of a nonbeliever, I'd say the question doesn't make sense because there is no such thing as predestination, if there is even a God at all.

From the perspective of an Eastern Christian, I'd say the question doesn't make sense because it depends upon the West's flawed and increasingly corrupt understanding of God and Hell.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Bourbon Apocalypse - 02-20-2018

@MagisterMusicae: per usual, thorough and concise, at least considering the subject.

@Melkite: I would like to "hear" you elaborate on your second comment.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Zedta - 02-20-2018

God creates man to return to Heaven. Man, through his actions in life and decisions made, grooms themselves for Heaven or Hell. It is a choice, a human choice. God merely fills out the obvious outcome of a lifetime of choices.

Many of the 'after-life' experiencers, claim that the damned 'run' from God and into the arms of Satan. It would seem, if that account is true, that it is indeed our choice in the end.


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - angeltime - 02-20-2018

(02-20-2018, 09:10 AM)meadjodha Wrote:
(02-19-2018, 11:45 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Hoping someone can answer this for me from the perspective of a nonbeliever; it's not a question that bothers or concerns me.  I hear it asked a lot though.  It kinda plays to the tension/mystery of the coexistence of predestination and free will.
God does not want people to go to hell.  He desires that all men be saved.  However, God does not force us to love Him.  We have free will to choose blessings and cursings, life and death.  If someone goes to hell it is their own choice because they have refused to love God and neighbor.

Peace.....unfortunately, there are those who never know or learn about God - just living corrupt and sinful since very early years - and this gets passed down.  Do you believe God will do something special/mercy for them??  I like to think he will.....God bless! :pray:


RE: Apologetics question: Why does God create people who are going to go to Hell? - Melkite - 02-20-2018

(02-20-2018, 01:44 PM)Bourbon Apocalypse Wrote: @Melkite: I would like to "hear" you elaborate on your second comment.

From an Eastern perspective, when you die, you are enveloped in God's love.  If you love God, that fire will be comforting.  If you hate God, that fire will be torment.

There are a number of icons and mosaics of rivers of flames flowing from the throne of God, enveloping both those on his right and his left, showing those on his left tormented by the flames, and those on his right praising him.  These exist in both the east and the west.

It is still common to hear people in the West refer to heaven and hell as our personal choice, as Zedta mentioned above.  Some mystics have reported that the love of God is such a torment to the damned at their judgement that they run to hell for relief.  This isn't so different from the Eastern perspective, but in the West it tends to get drowned out by the pious (or impious) imaginations of those who prefer God's justice to be fulfilled at the expense of his mercy (and often presume that they themselves are not subject to this final justice!).