FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Church (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Forum: Catholicism (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 (/showthread.php?tid=81871)

Pages: 1 2 3 4


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - jovan66102 - 04-21-2018

(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Ah there it is. You don't really care what the Church teaches. 

If you remember, we established some time ago that he is a protestant heretic.


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-21-2018, 10:30 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 09:07 PM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: The Traditional Catholic Doctrine of Creation
http://kolbecenter.org/the-traditional-catholic-doctrine-of-creation/

Quite simply the Kolbe Center is proffering a neo-Protestant notion of "Creation" under a Catholic veil.

My own personal dealing with Mr Owen have shown this. In my presence but privately he was corrected on a gross misinterpretation of St. Thomas Aquinas (to the point of falsity) by a traditional Catholic priest, but decided to refuse to accept the correction.

If you look at the sweeping generalizations often made (e.g. "all the Fathers and Doctors ...") which are easily and demonstrably false, it should show that these are not Catholic theologians interested in the Church's teaching, but in proffering their own opinion as dogma.

Case in point : St. Basil, mentioned above is one Father and Doctor who does not agree with regard to animal death. Certainly then it's not all the doctors. Also several Doctors and Fathers do not hold a six 24-hour day scenario (St. Cyprian and St. Augustine come immediately to mind), yet this very quote claims that "all the Father" believed and proclaimed this, which is, simply false.

Odd place for the Vatican to suggest i look for the church teachings at such a neo-protestant site. Maybe it is that both protostants and historical Catholics revived their beliefs from the bible?


I have provided links that respond to basil and augustine. In fact I quoted basil as a 6 day creationist. 

“‘And there was evening and there was morning: one day.’ And the evening and the morning were one day. Why does Scripture say ‘one day the first day’? Before speaking to us of the second, the third, and the fourth days, would it not have been more natural to call that one the first which began the series? If it therefore says ‘one day’, it is from a wish to determine the measure of day and night, and to combine the time that they contain. Now twenty-four hours fill up the space of one day—we mean of a day and of a night.”
Basil, Hexaemeron Homily IX:1

“God who made the nature of time measured it out and determined it by intervals of days; and, wishing to give it a week as a measure, he ordered the week to revolve from period to period upon itself, to count the movement of time, forming the week of one day revolving seven times upon itself … . If then the beginning of time is called ‘one day’ … it is because Scripture wishes to establish its relationship with eternity. … this day without evening, without succession and without end is not unknown to Scripture, and it is the day that the Psalmist calls the eighth day, because it is outside this time of weeks.”
Basil, Hexaemeron Homily II:8


Basil on animal death

 "Basil believed in what would now be defined as death in the animal world before the Fall. It is just that he had a different concept of death for animals than most people have today. One should be careful not to equate his perceptions with the proponents of animal death in the modern situation, as there is a vast theological difference. Basil the Great basically believed in what is now called “insect death” for all animals, on the basis of what is now recognized as a defective biology"
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j28_1/j28_1_77-83.pdf

Augestine

"Augustine abandoned his earlier allegorizations of Genesis that old-earth creationists and theistic evolutionists have latched onto in an attempt to justify adding deep time to the Bible. Furthermore, he always believed in a young earth"
https://creation.com/augustine-myths-debunked


However I have said the vast majority were 6 day creationist and nobody believed in evolution or the big bang or billion of years and the churches stance has always been the biblical one in the past.


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 09:04 PM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: In support of the overwhelming tradition of the church the vatican today gave me this site.

Pray tell, who at "the vatican" do you talk to?

So I emailed the vatican and got this response. 


The Catholic Church has never taken an official position explicitly on the Big Bang or evolution. All of the statements favorable to the Big Bang hypothesis or evolution have been made in a non-authoritative context. On the other hand, there is a large body of extremely authoritative teaching that upholds the fiat creation of all things and, rightly expounded, excludes Big Bang cosmology and biological evolution. The only official permission that the Magisterium has given in the encyclical letter of Pope Pius XII Humani generis was permission for Catholic scholars to examine the evidence for and against the evolutionary hypothesis, not to believe or teach it. However, just as papal permission to allow discussion of birth control was interpreted by most Western Bishops as permission to practice it, so permission to discuss evolution was perceived as permission to believe and teach theistic evolution. The difference is that the true Catholic doctrine of creation is waiting for its Humanae Vitae moment--which must come, because God cannot contradict Himself.

I hope this answer is helpful. Please read the article "The Traditional Doctrine of Creation" on the Kolbe website for an introduction to the authoritative teaching of the Church on creation. 

Yours in Christ through the Immaculata, 

Hugh Owen


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)Dominicus Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 08:36 PM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 07:08 PM)Dominicus Wrote: This is why we reject Sola Scriptura.

Instead you allow atheistic anti biblical modern interpretations control your thought. Luckily the catholic church has not made a doctrinal statement in agreement with you or i would outright reject it.

Ah there it is. You don't really care what the Church teaches. 

? I very much care and luckily they dont hold your position. I dont care what modern liberal atheists tell Catholics to believe.


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - yablabo - 04-22-2018

(04-22-2018, 08:08 AM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: ? I very much care and luckily they dont hold your position. I dont care what modern liberal atheists tell Catholics to believe.

Sir, if you are in fact a protestant (i.e., an heretic/a person who after he is baptized obstinately/pertinaciously denies or obstinately/pertinaciously doubts a truth which he must hold with divine and catholic faith), then I do not understand why you do not seek a priest you trust under whom to take your instruction and get your excommunication lifted. 

I am sorry that your line of questioning is being met with illogical red herrings and general opposition, but you have to recognize that people are going to guard against giving you any information that may be used to harass forum members or reflect badly on the Catholic Church (i.e., cast pearls before swine or throw what is holy to the dogs).

If you are simply looking to gather information and not to proselytize, then it comes across as more genuine simply to gather answers to your questions...rather than copying and pasting blog posts in what appears to be an attempt to persuade or convince people of something.

-- Nicole


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - MagisterMusicae - 04-22-2018

(04-22-2018, 08:07 AM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 09:04 PM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: In support of the overwhelming tradition of the church the vatican today gave me this site.

Pray tell, who at "the vatican" do you talk to?

So I emailed the vatican and got this response. 


The Catholic Church has never taken an official position explicitly on the Big Bang or evolution. All of the statements favorable to the Big Bang hypothesis or evolution have been made in a non-authoritative context. On the other hand, there is a large body of extremely authoritative teaching that upholds the fiat creation of all things and, rightly expounded, excludes Big Bang cosmology and biological evolution. The only official permission that the Magisterium has given in the encyclical letter of Pope Pius XII Humani generis was permission for Catholic scholars to examine the evidence for and against the evolutionary hypothesis, not to believe or teach it. However, just as papal permission to allow discussion of birth control was interpreted by most Western Bishops as permission to practice it, so permission to discuss evolution was perceived as permission to believe and teach theistic evolution. The difference is that the true Catholic doctrine of creation is waiting for its Humanae Vitae moment--which must come, because God cannot contradict Himself.

I hope this answer is helpful. Please read the article "The Traditional Doctrine of Creation" on the Kolbe website for an introduction to the authoritative teaching of the Church on creation. 

Yours in Christ through the Immaculata, 

Hugh Owen

Hugh Owen doesn't work at "the vatican".

He doesn't speak for the Church, and much of what he has said and written is demonstrably false or clear misinterpretation of the Church, Fathers or theologians.

He is a former high school teacher with no education in theology or science (B.S. in History & M.S. in education), who has made it his mission in life to go about and make scientific and theological critiques of reputable theologians and scientists, calling such people who accept what the Church teaches and the limits she sets as heretics.


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - MagisterMusicae - 04-22-2018

I don't make any conclusions for myself on the topic. I really don't care whether evolutionary processes directed by God produced the universe as we see it (though this seems far more logical and consistent with both the Faith and Science), or by an instantaneous production of everything as we know it.

God produced all of creation in an instant (this is Creation, properly speaking, the production of things ex nihilo), arranged it over the course of some time (either 7 days, 7,000 years or longer depending on which Church Father you read) to produce what we see today.

Still, some theologians make decent arguments for evolutionary processes based on Thomistic thinking : http://www.thomisticevolution.org/

I'm not a disciple of these, but if we're going to be throwing around a former high school teacher with no theological or scientific credentials as an expert in the subject and proponent of a Fundamentalist Protestant stance, then perhaps orthodox Catholic theologians (Dominicans) should be offered as well.

One theological argument which I find particularly interesting and worthy of discussion, though, certainly not definitive is : The fittingness of evolutionary creation/


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-21-2018, 10:53 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Ah there it is. You don't really care what the Church teaches. 

If you remember, we established some time ago that he is a protestant heretic.

They say this so they call call me a heritic and dismiss what i say. On the other hand, what if i was a protstant who was investigating Catholicism and wanted to "test" it on its stance on creation. So if the church was against creation or said evolution was not inconstant as a matter of doctrine,  in my mind i could dismiss it as not the infalible interpreter it claims to be. They have not done so, therefore i must further investigate. In fact I am in the process of investigating Catholicisms, I am purchasing some apologetic works in defense of Catholics. such as what is coming in the mail

Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History
https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599475367/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1599475367&pd_rd_r=4W0FKZH0PJ1XFS7EZQMN&pd_rd_w=AwWBh&pd_rd_wg=OFAoC&psc=1&refRID=4W0FKZH0PJ1XFS7EZQMN

The Drama of Salvation: How God Rescues You from Your Sins and Delivers You to Eternal Life 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1941663125/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

The Real Story of Catholic History: Answering Twenty Centuries of Anti-Catholic Myths
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1683570472/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-22-2018, 11:40 AM)yablabo Wrote:
(04-22-2018, 08:08 AM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: ? I very much care and luckily they dont hold your position. I dont care what modern liberal atheists tell Catholics to believe.

Sir, if you are in fact a protestant (i.e., an heretic/a person who after he is baptized obstinately/pertinaciously denies or obstinately/pertinaciously doubts a truth which he must hold with divine and catholic faith), then I do not understand why you do not seek a priest you trust under whom to take your instruction and get your excommunication lifted. 

I am sorry that your line of questioning is being met with illogical red herrings and general opposition, but you have to recognize that people are going to guard against giving you any information that may be used to harass forum members or reflect badly on the Catholic Church (i.e., cast pearls before swine or throw what is holy to the dogs).

If you are simply looking to gather information and not to proselytize, then it comes across as more genuine simply to gather answers to your questions...rather than copying and pasting blog posts in what appears to be an attempt to persuade or convince people of something.

-- Nicole

Thanks. I am investigating Catholicism and want to gather info yes. However i will also defend myself when attacked. I have no cause or reason to try and convert a people i view as christian already. I care not where you go to church only if you are in haven. If you see my posts i am on this subject with the majority of Catholics throughout history and many today. I am a biblical creationist. I was giving your church a "test" on this issue to see what they taught. If they declared evolution true, or constant with the bible, than in my mind i could easily reject its infallibility claims. It did not so i cannot.


In fact I am in the process of investigating Catholicisms, I am purchasing some apologetic works in defense of Catholics. such as what is coming in the mail

Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History
https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599475367/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1599475367&pd_rd_r=4W0FKZH0PJ1XFS7EZQMN&pd_rd_w=AwWBh&pd_rd_wg=OFAoC&psc=1&refRID=4W0FKZH0PJ1XFS7EZQMN

The Drama of Salvation: How God Rescues You from Your Sins and Delivers You to Eternal Life 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1941663125/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

The Real Story of Catholic History: Answering Twenty Centuries of Anti-Catholic Myths
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1683570472/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1


RE: Churches Stance on Evolution 1950 - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 04-22-2018

(04-22-2018, 04:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-22-2018, 08:07 AM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 10:32 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 09:04 PM)1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont Wrote: In support of the overwhelming tradition of the church the vatican today gave me this site.

Pray tell, who at "the vatican" do you talk to?

So I emailed the vatican and got this response. 


The Catholic Church has never taken an official position explicitly on the Big Bang or evolution. All of the statements favorable to the Big Bang hypothesis or evolution have been made in a non-authoritative context. On the other hand, there is a large body of extremely authoritative teaching that upholds the fiat creation of all things and, rightly expounded, excludes Big Bang cosmology and biological evolution. The only official permission that the Magisterium has given in the encyclical letter of Pope Pius XII Humani generis was permission for Catholic scholars to examine the evidence for and against the evolutionary hypothesis, not to believe or teach it. However, just as papal permission to allow discussion of birth control was interpreted by most Western Bishops as permission to practice it, so permission to discuss evolution was perceived as permission to believe and teach theistic evolution. The difference is that the true Catholic doctrine of creation is waiting for its Humanae Vitae moment--which must come, because God cannot contradict Himself.

I hope this answer is helpful. Please read the article "The Traditional Doctrine of Creation" on the Kolbe website for an introduction to the authoritative teaching of the Church on creation. 

Yours in Christ through the Immaculata, 

Hugh Owen

Hugh Owen doesn't work at "the vatican".

He doesn't speak for the Church, and much of what he has said and written is demonstrably false or clear misinterpretation of the Church, Fathers or theologians.

He is a former high school teacher with no education in theology or science (B.S. in History & M.S. in education), who has made it his mission in life to go about and make scientific and theological critiques of reputable theologians and scientists, calling such people who accept what the Church teaches and the limits she sets as heretics.

If so you better contact the vatican and let them know.

http://vatican.com/