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"turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - Printable Version

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"turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - gracemary5 - 05-10-2018

Sorry, but these are sayings of Jesus (the only ones i can think of, thankfully) that do not make sense to me

i can see why he said not to take revenge, but if we were to just let evil go and not do anything about,  the world would lapse into  anarchy and hell on Earth

which it kind of already has... :(


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - angeltime - 05-10-2018

(05-10-2018, 04:28 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: Sorry, but these are sayings of  Jesus (the only ones i can think of, thankfully) that do  not make sense to me

i can see why he said not to take revenge, but if we were to just let evil go and not  do anything about,  the world would  lapse into  anarchy and hell on Earth

which it kind of already has... :(
Peace.....Jesus wants us to pray and fast for conversion for these evil-doers - and God said, "Vengeance is mine!"  It's difficult at times, because we want to take things into our own hands, but it is really not the wisest way to go always.  God bless, angeltime :heart:


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - 1stvermont2ndvermont3rdvermont - 05-10-2018

(05-10-2018, 04:28 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: Sorry, but these are sayings of  Jesus (the only ones i can think of, thankfully) that do  not make sense to me

i can see why he said not to take revenge, but if we were to just let evil go and not  do anything about,  the world would  lapse into  anarchy and hell on Earth

which it kind of already has... :(

while this is on a topic of mine on goverment and resisting tyranny, you will find catholic references  to a proper understanding of the sermon on the mount.


What About the Sermon on the Mount?

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[Means properly understand and interpret] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Mathew 5

What about the sermon on the mount where Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek? Many seem to think these are new commands to believers part of the new covenant and thus the old moral code and laws no longer apply. However there is nothing new here, Jesus is simply giving the proper understanding of various OT laws, The OT teaches the same principles.

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
-Leviticus 19.18

30 let him give his cheek to the one who strikes,
and let him be filled with insults.
-Lamentations 3.30

“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.
-Exodus 23 4-5

Therefore any events or actions during the Old Testament God saw as consistent [as did Jesus in his sermon on the mount] with the principles of loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek. This same Old Testament allowed for the death penalty, the conquest of Canaan and the overthrow of multiple tyrannical governments. The NT does not bring about new laws [ but a new covenant] and is salvation centered, while the OT is where God laid out his political laws. I think our modern understanding of the sermon on the mount is off. I also think our modern ideas of what love is [usually being nice] is not God's idea of love is. For example Elijah made fun of the prophets of Baal in 1 kings. In Psalm 69 24- 28 David prays his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life. Paul wished anyone who preaches contrary to thew gospel to be cursed 1Galatians 1 8-9 and in 5.12 he wishes they would be castrated. In 2 Timothy 4:14 Paul hopes Alexander the Coppersmith would be repaid for his evil works. And in acts 13.10

Then Saul—also called Paul—filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer 10 and said, “You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won’t you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord? 

Jesus used harsh language and often insulted the authorities and his enemies. Calling them vipers, evil, sons of the devil, a fox etc Matt 23.37 12.34 Luke 13.3 John 8.44 Matt 7.6. He also threatened unrepentant men with judgment and hell fire mark 12.9 matt 21.4 11 21-24 18.6.

So when Jesus said “Turn the other cheek”

“”Christ is not directly addressing questions of government and criminal justice in this passage but is speaking of the attitude that individual Christians ought to strive to take toward injustice he suffers. And that is how the passage has traditionally been understood.”
-Edward Fesser Joseph M Bessette by man shall his blood be shed Ignatius press San Francisco 2017

“What Jesus here demands of his followers is a personal attitude to evildoers which is promoted by mercy not justice, witch renounces retaliation so compelling us to risk further costly suffering, which is governed never by desire to cause them harm but always by the determination to serve their highest good”
-John Scott

In John 18 when Jesus himself was slapped in the face he challenged the man's reasons who slapped him. When Paul was slapped in the face in acts chapter 23 he replied

“Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall!”

Are we not to resist evil doers? Jesus contently resisted evil doers. He did this in the temple with the money changers. He did this by casting out demons. Peter resisted Simon magus acts 8. Paul stands up to Elymas in acts 13. We are to overcome evil with good [Rom 12 17-21 1 peter 2 21-24].

In the sermon on the mount Jesus did not get rid of judicial proportionality [eye for eye] or oath tacking, neither did Jesus do away with punishments as he often preached hell fire. Instead he calls us to be generous and forgiving, seeking reconciliation. He is prohibiting a cycle of insults among citizens. Augustine said

“The old precept as well as the new is intended to check the vehemence of hatred and to curb the impetuosity of angry passion...to put a restraint upon a revenges unjust from its excess, the law established the principle of compensation, that the penalty should correspond to the injury inflicted. So the precepts “and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” instead of to kindle the fire that was quenched, was rather a covering to prevent the fire already kindled from spreading.”

The Sermon on the Mount and Vengeance vs Justice

“What is here commanded is a christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than indulge the desire of revenge, but what is further added does not strickley obey according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor Paul turn the other check”
-Robert Witham and Richard Challoner

Vengeance is a sin and inconstant with loving your enemies. But if motivated by justice , or a desired good outcome, it is not a evil. Giving gifts for good behavior and consequences for bad actions is normal human thought. Christians should be angry at the evils of the world and violations of Gods law, God himself is angry at them this is a good thing showing us created in the image of God. When a robber goes through a house raping, stealing, torturing and finally murdering woman children and men, that should arose anger for its injustice. Therefore if you motives are justice, than that is not a revenge instance. 

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
-Isaiah 61.8

Forgiveness and Justice

As Christians we are called to forgive as our father forgives us on a personal level between individuals. On a personal level we are always called to forgive when they repent.

So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sistera sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
-Luke 17 3-4

Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth.  I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.... 22 Look! I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices. 23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds  and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
-Revelations 2 16, 22-23

Than we can be like our father in haven.

Yahweh—Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth, 7 maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished
-Exodus 34 6-7

But forgiveness does not mean we dont work against evil and certainty that we don't condone it or allow it. While we are to forgive all, it is not a blind forgiveness that overrides justice and punishments for law breakers and an allowance to sin. God himself sends unrepentant sinners to eternal punishment. Jesus himself did not blindly forgive Mark 14.21 Matt 12.31. Yet even those who repent still must face justice. A distinction is made by God between individual forgiveness, and laws to govern society.

“It is indeed praiseworthy for victims of crime to forgive their debtors, but such personal pardon does not absolve offenders from their obligations to justice. The relationship of the state to the criminal is not the same as that of a victim to an assailant. Governors and judges are responsible for maintaining a just public order.”
-Cardinal Avery Bulles


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - Poche - 05-10-2018

(05-10-2018, 04:28 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: Sorry, but these are sayings of  Jesus (the only ones i can think of, thankfully) that do  not make sense to me

i can see why he said not to take revenge, but if we were to just let evil go and not  do anything about,  the world would  lapse into  anarchy and hell on Earth

which it kind of already has... :(

I think it depends on the context.


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - Dominicus - 05-10-2018

These are not commandments but rather councils like the three evangelical councils. If we were to be attacked we could permissably defend ourselves with equal force but it is a better display of charity to not resist as Christ himself did not resist being crucified. If however someone else were to be attacked then we are bound to help defend them.


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - Poche - 05-12-2018

This reminds me of a story from the Fathers of the Desert;

There was a person of rank who had a daughter who was possessed by a demon. Someone told him about a certain father who could free her but that he would be reluctant to do so because of the attention that comes with such things. So they set up a ruse to get the father to come to his house. On the day of the market when the father's disciples were setting up their stall  at the market this person made an offer to buy a large number of their baskets. The disciple was brought to house. the daughter who was possessed came up to the disciple and slapped him. The disciple turned the other cheek. The demon cried out, "the commandment of Christ forces me to  leave!!!"
It was the turning of of cheek in this one instance by the humble disciple that forced the demon to depart.


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - gracemary5 - 05-14-2018

(05-12-2018, 12:48 AM)Poche Wrote: This reminds me of a story from the Fathers of the Desert;

There was a person of rank who had a daughter who was possessed by a demon. Someone told him about a certain father who could free her but that he would be reluctant to do so because of the attention that comes with such things. So they set up a ruse to get the father to come to his house. On the day of the market when the father's disciples were setting up their stall  at the market this person made an offer to buy a large number of their baskets. The disciple was brought to house. the daughter who was possessed came up to the disciple and slapped him. The disciple turned the other cheek. The demon cried out, "the commandment of Christ forces me to  leave!!!"
It was the turning of of cheek in this one instance by the humble disciple that forced the demon to depart.

well, that's interesting.

But the  thing is, i can understand turning the other cheek when slapped. It is when I am slapped in other ways (laws are broken, e tc) that i have a problem. But other posters here have helped a lot in my understanding.. about legal matters and etc..


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - havok579257 - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 01:45 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
(05-12-2018, 12:48 AM)Poche Wrote: This reminds me of a story from the Fathers of the Desert;

There was a person of rank who had a daughter who was possessed by a demon. Someone told him about a certain father who could free her but that he would be reluctant to do so because of the attention that comes with such things. So they set up a ruse to get the father to come to his house. On the day of the market when the father's disciples were setting up their stall  at the market this person made an offer to buy a large number of their baskets. The disciple was brought to house. the daughter who was possessed came up to the disciple and slapped him. The disciple turned the other cheek. The demon cried out, "the commandment of Christ forces me to  leave!!!"
It was the turning of of cheek in this one instance by the humble disciple that forced the demon to depart.

well, that's interesting.

But the  thing is, i can understand turning the other cheek when slapped. It is when I am slapped in other ways (laws are broken, e tc) that i have a problem. But other posters here have helped a lot in my understanding.. about legal matters and etc..

just look to Jesus.  He was beaten and tortured and could easily have called down the angels from heaven to defend him.  He didn't.  If its good enough for our Lord, it should be for us also.


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - gracemary5 - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 02:05 PM)havok579257 Wrote:
(05-14-2018, 01:45 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
(05-12-2018, 12:48 AM)Poche Wrote: This reminds me of a story from the Fathers of the Desert;

There was a person of rank who had a daughter who was possessed by a demon. Someone told him about a certain father who could free her but that he would be reluctant to do so because of the attention that comes with such things. So they set up a ruse to get the father to come to his house. On the day of the market when the father's disciples were setting up their stall  at the market this person made an offer to buy a large number of their baskets. The disciple was brought to house. the daughter who was possessed came up to the disciple and slapped him. The disciple turned the other cheek. The demon cried out, "the commandment of Christ forces me to  leave!!!"
It was the turning of of cheek in this one instance by the humble disciple that forced the demon to depart.

well, that's interesting.

But the  thing is, i can understand turning the other cheek when slapped. It is when I am slapped in other ways (laws are broken, e tc) that i have a problem. But other posters here have helped a lot in my understanding.. about legal matters and etc..

just look to Jesus.  He was beaten and tortured and could easily have called down the angels from heaven to defend him.  He didn't.  If its good enough for our Lord, it should be for us also.

i have had that thought. But still, we can't just let everyting go because again, then we would anarchy and evil would prevail always... which is rather how things are mor/less anyway


RE: "turning the other cheek" & "do not resiste evildoers" HUH? - havok579257 - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 02:18 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
(05-14-2018, 02:05 PM)havok579257 Wrote:
(05-14-2018, 01:45 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
(05-12-2018, 12:48 AM)Poche Wrote: This reminds me of a story from the Fathers of the Desert;

There was a person of rank who had a daughter who was possessed by a demon. Someone told him about a certain father who could free her but that he would be reluctant to do so because of the attention that comes with such things. So they set up a ruse to get the father to come to his house. On the day of the market when the father's disciples were setting up their stall  at the market this person made an offer to buy a large number of their baskets. The disciple was brought to house. the daughter who was possessed came up to the disciple and slapped him. The disciple turned the other cheek. The demon cried out, "the commandment of Christ forces me to  leave!!!"
It was the turning of of cheek in this one instance by the humble disciple that forced the demon to depart.

well, that's interesting.

But the  thing is, i can understand turning the other cheek when slapped. It is when I am slapped in other ways (laws are broken, e tc) that i have a problem. But other posters here have helped a lot in my understanding.. about legal matters and etc..

just look to Jesus.  He was beaten and tortured and could easily have called down the angels from heaven to defend him.  He didn't.  If its good enough for our Lord, it should be for us also.

i have had that thought. But still, we can't just let everyting go because again, then we would anarchy and evil would prevail always... which is rather how things are mor/less anyway

go back to Jesus.  do things the way he did them.  we can make excuses and justify things however we choose but if we imitate our Lord and his actions you are never doing wrong.