FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Council of Trent - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Church (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Forum: Sacred Scripture & Church Documents (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: Council of Trent (/showthread.php?tid=82304)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15


Council of Trent - For Petes Sake - 05-29-2018

Session VII Canon XIII - If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

 Doesn't this make the new mass schismatic?


RE: Council of Trent - MagisterMusicae - 05-29-2018

(05-29-2018, 09:04 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: Session VII Canon XIII - If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

 Doesn't this make the new mass schismatic?

A thing cannot be schismatic. An action or a person, yes, but not a thing.

Whatever one might argue about the New Mass as regards its evil/good, it is certain that it was at the very least permitted by Paul VI, so would qualify at a minimum as "approved".

So in short, bad as the New Mass may be, no.


RE: Council of Trent - For Petes Sake - 05-30-2018

(05-29-2018, 11:20 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-29-2018, 09:04 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: Session VII Canon XIII - If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

 Doesn't this make the new mass schismatic?

A thing cannot be schismatic. An action or a person, yes, but not a thing.

Whatever one might argue about the New Mass as regards its evil/good, it is certain that it was at the very least permitted by Paul VI, so would qualify at a minimum as "approved".

So in short, bad as the New Mass may be, no.

Does this affect the licity of the new mass though?


RE: Council of Trent - Paul - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 05:52 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: Does this affect the licity of the new mass though?

Why would it? The Pope approved it, and the canon says ministers, and pastors of the churches. That doesn't include Popes.

And, technically, it doesn't address the Mass, since the Mass is not a rite for the administration of the sacraments. The rite of Communion is in the Ritual, separate from the Mass, which is why the Confiteor and Domine, non sum dignus are repeated.


RE: Council of Trent - SaintSebastian - 05-31-2018

If anything, this would apply equally to those that "contemn" the NO as an approved rite of the Church as to those that "contemn" the TLM, which is also still an approved rite of the Church. It would of course also apply to those that say it's ok for priests to experiment or improvise in even the NO contrary to the prescribed books.

It should also be noted that the Council of Trent also says the Church can change rites or institute new rites in Session 21:

Quote:It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, it may ordain,--or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circumstances, times, and places. And this the Apostle seems not obscurely to have intimated, when he says; Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. And indeed it is sufficiently manifest that he himself exercised this power,- as in many other things, so in regard of this very sacrament; when, after having ordained certain things touching the use thereof, he says; The rest I will set in order when I come.

Pius XII said the same in Mediator Dei, clarifying that it is the Pope who ultimately has this responsibility:


Quote:58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.



RE: Council of Trent - Old World Order - 07-20-2018

(05-29-2018, 09:04 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: Session VII Canon XIII - If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

 Doesn't this make the new mass schismatic?

Yes. "Every pastor" includes the Pope. "Any one" also includes the Pope. This means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed. In the Council of Trent, Session IV we read...

"But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema."

Does this mean a Pope is excepted from receiving the true Canon of Scripture? Of course not. "Any one" includes the Pope. In the same way, "any one" includes the Pope in Session VII, Canon VIII.


RE: Council of Trent - Old World Order - 07-20-2018

(05-31-2018, 03:45 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: If anything, this would apply equally to those that "contemn" the NO as an approved rite of the Church as to those that "contemn" the TLM, which is also still an approved rite of the Church. It would of course also apply to those that say it's ok for priests to experiment or improvise in even the NO contrary to the prescribed books.

It should also be noted that the Council of Trent also says the Church can change rites or institute new rites in Session 21:

Quote:It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, it may ordain,--or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circumstances, times, and places. And this the Apostle seems not obscurely to have intimated, when he says; Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. And indeed it is sufficiently manifest that he himself exercised this power,- as in many other things, so in regard of this very sacrament; when, after having ordained certain things touching the use thereof, he says; The rest I will set in order when I come.

Pius XII said the same in Mediator Dei, clarifying that it is the Pope who ultimately has this responsibility:


Quote:58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.


The above refers to a DISPENSATION for a time, in a certain place or in certain places, due to circumstances prevailing in that area and not a permanent change or a license to reject Church dogma. Please read the following from Pope Gregory XVI...

10. To use the words of the fathers of Trent, it is certain that the Church "was instructed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles and that all truth was daily taught it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."[12] Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain "restoration and regeneration" for her as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect or obscuration or other misfortune. Indeed these authors of novelties consider that a "foundation may be laid of a new human institution," and what Cyprian detested may come to pass, that what was a divine thing "may become a human church."[13] Let those who devise such plans be aware that, according to the testimony of St. Leo, "the right to grant dispensation from the canons is given" only to the Roman Pontiff. He alone, and no private person, can decide anything "about the rules of the Church Fathers." As St. Gelasius writes: "It is the papal responsibility to keep the canonical decrees in their place and to evaluate the precepts of previous popes so that when the times demand relaxation in order to rejuvenate the churches, they may be adjusted after diligent consideration."[14] Pope Gregory XVI (Mirari Vos).


RE: Council of Trent - Paul - 07-20-2018

(07-20-2018, 08:31 AM)Old World Order Wrote: Which means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed.

St Pius X did.


RE: Council of Trent - Old World Order - 07-20-2018

(07-20-2018, 09:39 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 08:31 AM)Old World Order Wrote: Which means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed.

St Pius X did.

St. Pius X did no such thing.


RE: Council of Trent - aquinas138 - 07-20-2018

(07-20-2018, 10:55 AM)Old World Order Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 09:39 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 08:31 AM)Old World Order Wrote: Which means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed.

St Pius X did.

St. Pius X did no such thing.

He most certainly did, by abolishing the traditional Roman psalter and forbidding its use. And St Pius V before him (and after Trent!) made an alteration to the Roman psalter, too, by moving several psalms from Sunday Prime to weekdays.