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Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

From Fisheaters.com:

"Contrary to the idea many Protestants have that all we have to do is intellectually conclude that Jesus is the Son of God and we will thereafter be assured of salvation, Sacred Scripture tells us that even the demons know Who He is. Think about this: the devils know Who Lord Christ is. And their knowing Who He is won't save them.

The point of all this is to say that walking the path of salvation is not a matter of just coming to an intellectual conclusion. In no way is the Holy Faith a mere philosophy! There are reasons for the Faith, of course, and one can find support for Catholic beliefs in everything from sociology to psychology to physics. And you can be certain that faith and reason will never contradict each other. There are certainly, too, times in which the Faith must be defended through debate and argument. But ultimately, having faith is a supernatural gift that must be lived in love in order for it to be a true faith, a pleasing and effective faith that is radically different from the demons' mere "knowing." In other words, true faith requires a conversion of the heart, which we term "metanoia." It requires our seeing the faith as a gift we've not earned at all as opposed to treating it like a great intellectual achievement that just proves how bright we are, how right we are. It requires our "putting on Christ," "taking up our crosses," and following Him, becoming like Him, repenting of our sins, pursuing virtue and, above all, following "the Two Great Commandments" by loving God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves."


As someone who was raised a Catholic (if in name only) and is now a Protestant, I must disagree with your above statement claiming that Protestants only require an intellectual conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God to acquire salvation. That is NOT the case. In fact, Protestants teach exactly what you say regarding "a conversion of the heart", a changing of the mind - repentance or "metanoia". We also teach that "faith without works is dead". If people say they believe but don't live out their professed faith as God's grace permits them to do good works, we believe that their faith isn't genuine. Protestants teach that Christianity is "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27) and this means "in you" in mind, heart and deed.


RE: Catholicism - Zedta - 04-21-2020

You're fishing with the wrong tackle. You won't get the fish you want here, me thinks. Any lost Catholic has fallen for the same lie that Satan has used to catch people from the first one in Eden: I know something that 'they' are keeping from you and if you follow me, I'll tell you.

I couldn't work on Adam, since he had full knowledge, but it did on Eve, because she didn't. Protestants only have part of the truth, waiting for the rest to be revealed. It never is, until they return to the fullness of faith: The Catholic Faith.

Remember brother: The KJV 'Bible' is an abridged bible, a Masonic version of the Bible. Take a close look at the opening pages of the very first KJV. It has Masonic imagery all over it. The KJV is enthroned in every Masonic Temple in the world. It has perpetrated a huge lie on many, thinking they are getting something withheld from them by the Catholic Church. You have been fooled, cunningly, but fully fooled.


RE: Catholicism - MagisterMusicae - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 01:30 PM)Wingfold Wrote: As someone who was raised a Catholic (if in name only) and is now a Protestant, I must disagree with your above statement claiming that Protestants only require an intellectual conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God to acquire salvation. That is NOT the case. In fact, Protestants teach exactly what you say regarding "a conversion of the heart", a changing of the mind - repentance or "metanoia". We also teach that "faith without works is dead". If people say they believe but don't live out their professed faith as God's grace permits them to do good works, we believe that their faith isn't genuine. Protestants teach that Christianity is "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27) and this means "in you" in mind, heart and deeds.

Almost all of the Protestants that I've met in the last 20-30 years of doing apologetical work (and that's easily thousands) have shown me two things :

1. Beyond some very basic doctrines, like the Trinity, and that Christ actually existed and died as Scripture suggests (and there are even some that take issue with this), there is little consistency in doctrine.

2. Fiduciary Faith (the "trust" that Christ's merits have saved me as the sole basis for justification) was one of the most consistent of these stemming from the sola fide, sola scriptura, sola gratia division that the vast majority of Protestant denominations and Non-denominational Evangelicals seem to accept.

Hence while you may think that as Protestant that you personally and some around you don't accept this, I can promise you that stands against many others who do. In short, your view seems to be a minority opinion.

However, anecdotes do not prove something, and bare claims like your assertion also do not prove something, so perhaps you could cite the a teaching authority which is clear (other than Scripture, which we know from Acts 8 and history is not clear enough to settle this matter) that Protestants actually do not accept "Fiduciary Faith" and instead think that there is more necessary than this trust—that someone who "accepted Jesus as his personal Savior" would need to do more, else, he would not be justified.

To do this you would need to demonstrate that this was from a teaching authority other than Scripture, and that at least a significant of number of Protestants (like a large minority) would accept it.

If you can do that, I think we could change what that page says.


RE: Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2020, 01:30 PM)Wingfold Wrote: As someone who was raised a Catholic (if in name only) and is now a Protestant, I must disagree with your above statement claiming that Protestants only require an intellectual conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God to acquire salvation. That is NOT the case. In fact, Protestants teach exactly what you say regarding "a conversion of the heart", a changing of the mind - repentance or "metanoia". We also teach that "faith without works is dead". If people say they believe but don't live out their professed faith as God's grace permits them to do good works, we believe that their faith isn't genuine. Protestants teach that Christianity is "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27) and this means "in you" in mind, heart and deeds.

Almost all of the Protestants that I've met in the last 20-30 years of doing apologetical work (and that's easily thousands) have shown me two things :

1. Beyond some very basic doctrines, like the Trinity, and that Christ actually existed and died as Scripture suggests (and there are even some that take issue with this), there is little consistency in doctrine.

2. Fiduciary Faith (the "trust" that Christ's merits have saved me as the sole basis for justification) was one of the most consistent of these stemming from the sola fide, sola scriptura, sola gratia division that the vast majority of Protestant denominations and Non-denominational Evangelicals seem to accept.

Hence while you may think that as Protestant that you personally and some around you don't accept this, I can promise you that stands against many others who do. In short, your view seems to be a minority opinion.

However, anecdotes do not prove something, and bare claims like your assertion also do not prove something, so perhaps you could cite the a teaching authority which is clear (other than Scripture, which we know from Acts 8 and history is not clear enough to settle this matter) that Protestants actually do not accept "Fiduciary Faith" and instead think that there is more necessary than this trust—that someone who "accepted Jesus as his personal Savior" would need to do more, else, he would not be justified.

To do this you would need to demonstrate that this was from a teaching authority other than Scripture, and that at least a significant of number of Protestants (like a large minority) would accept it.

If you can do that, I think we could change what that page says.



RE: Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

"Little consistency in doctrine"? Oh my. All legitimate Protestant denominations accept the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed - as does the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, there are pseudo-Christian sects that don't such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and a bunch of other cults, but they are not Protestant or Evangelical denominations.

"Fiduciary Faith". Someone once said, "There are just two religions in the world and everyone believes in one or the other. You either believe in human achievement or you believe in divine accomplishment." Divine accomplishment being the substitution death of Jesus at Calvary which redeems the lost. The RC Church believes and teaches that, too.


RE: Catholicism - MagisterMusicae - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 03:25 PM)Wingfold Wrote: "Little consistency in doctrine"? Oh my. All legitimate Protestant denominations accept the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed - as does the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, there are pseudo-Christian sects that don't such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and a bunch of other cults, but they are not Protestant or Evangelical denominations.

Yes. Little consistency in Doctrine. Once you leave those 12 articles of the Apostles' Creed (expressed in any Creed you want to choose) then clearly there are major differences.

Consider Calvinists versus Lutherans. Calvinists effectively say one is either saved or not and there's nothing you can do about it. Lutherans would hold that you can lose your salvation but that grace does not actually make you good, and that Adam's sin totally corrupted human nature so even God cannot repair or restore it.

Look a bit into Scripture. Catholics and Orthodox take Christ at his word in the latter half of John 6, where Christ says we need to actually eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved. Protestants think this is a highly symbolic, not a literal passage.

Catholics say that Matthew 16.18 and various other passages show that a hierarchy of authority around St Peter was established. Protestants don't accept that, neither do the Orthodox, who accept that there is an authority but it is collegial.

So, yes, once you leave the basic fundamental doctrine of the Trinity, it gets very messy very fast.

But, my question. Who are you to judge a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where can I find the authority which determines this or sets it out? Obviously that cannot be the Bible, if so many so-called Christians can be at such wide variance in interpreting what seem like plain texts (e.g. John 6, and Matt 16.18). So, who or what is the authority for judging what is a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where do I find the list of standards or doctrines? How can I know that authority has this authority from God to make such a judgement?

Since clearly my salvation, according to you, depends on more than just "faith" but also some degree of correct belief, that seems a critical question. If I can be part of a "illegitimate" sect, then that would seem to impede my salvation (if it didn't it would seem to be "legitimate"), and so that list seems to be critical. Where is it found, or who do I seek out for that answer?

(04-21-2020, 03:25 PM)Wingfold Wrote: "Fiduciary Faith". Someone once said, "There are just two religions in the world and everyone believes in one or the other. You either believe in human achievement or you believe in divine accomplishment." Divine accomplishment being the substitution death of Jesus at Calvary which redeems the lost. The RC Church believes and teaches that, too.

The Catholic Church teaches (in short) that God does the work but expects our cooperation with it. While salvation is his work, as St Augustine says, "God Who created us without us: will not save us without us."

Christ's death redeemed all of us potentially, but only actually redeems those who cooperate and allow God to work in us. He opened heaven, and gave the means to get there, but with His help we need to take those means.

So, if you're quoting someone, then obviously they have said something you think correct and authoritative. Who is this "someone"? Where does he get his authority to claim this?

I refer back to my question for you, however. You have made a bare claim: that Protestants (as a whole, not just yourself), reject Sola Fide. I would like you to show the teaching authority for why this is not true, else you are claiming to be your own authority, in which case either you are infallible, or you put yourself in a very precarious situation, seeing as you've admitted that correct belief does factor into our salvation, and if you are your own authority, then how could you ever know if you were actually correct?


RE: Catholicism - Paul - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 03:25 PM)Wingfold Wrote: "Little consistency in doctrine"? Oh my. All legitimate Protestant denominations accept the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed - as does the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, there are pseudo-Christian sects that don't such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and a bunch of other cults, but they are not Protestant or Evangelical denominations.

There's so much more to the faith than just the creeds, starting with the nature of the Church (or whether Christ even founded a church), what powers he gave to the Apostles and their successors (or not), and how God chooses to interact with us through the sacraments. Catholics believe we're forgiven when we confess our sins to a priest and he forgives us in the name of Christ, and they believe that because they believe Jesus commanded it be done that way. Most Protestants reject that, and if Catholics are right, they're quite possibly in a lot of trouble come Judgment Day. And that's just one example. And that doesn't even get into more strictly moral matters - on homosexuality, for example, beliefs range from the extreme hatred of "God hates fags" to denominations where homosexual "marriages" are very happily publicly celebrated as good things. That's not consistency. And there's no authority for them to appeal to to say which of them are right, since the whole premise of Protestantism is that the individual believer can figure it out for himself.


RE: Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 03:59 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(04-21-2020, 03:25 PM)Wingfold Wrote: "Little consistency in doctrine"? Oh my. All legitimate Protestant denominations accept the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed - as does the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, there are pseudo-Christian sects that don't such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and a bunch of other cults, but they are not Protestant or Evangelical denominations.

Yes. Little consistency in Doctrine. Once you leave those 12 articles of the Apostles' Creed (expressed in any Creed you want to choose) then clearly there are major differences.

Consider Calvinists versus Lutherans. Calvinists effectively say one is either saved or not and there's nothing you can do about it. Lutherans would hold that you can lose your salvation but that grace does not actually make you good, and that Adam's sin totally corrupted human nature so even God cannot repair or restore it.

Look a bit into Scripture. Catholics and Orthodox take Christ at his word in the latter half of John 6, where Christ says we need to actually eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved. Protestants think this is a highly symbolic, not a literal passage.

Catholics say that Matthew 16.18 and various other passages show that a hierarchy of authority around St Peter was established. Protestants don't accept that, neither do the Orthodox, who accept that there is an authority but it is collegial.

So, yes, once you leave the basic fundamental doctrine of the Trinity, it gets very messy very fast.

But, my question. Who are you to judge a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where can I find the authority which determines this or sets it out? Obviously that cannot be the Bible, if so many so-called Christians can be at such wide variance in interpreting what seem like plain texts (e.g. John 6, and Matt 16.18). So, who or what is the authority for judging what is a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where do I find the list of standards or doctrines? How can I know that authority has this authority from God to make such a judgement?

Since clearly my salvation, according to you, depends on more than just "faith" but also some degree of correct belief, that seems a critical question. If I can be part of a "illegitimate" sect, then that would seem to impede my salvation (if it didn't it would seem to be "legitimate"), and so that list seems to be critical. Where is it found, or who do I seek out for that answer?

(04-21-2020, 03:25 PM)Wingfold Wrote: "Fiduciary Faith". Someone once said, "There are just two religions in the world and everyone believes in one or the other. You either believe in human achievement or you believe in divine accomplishment." Divine accomplishment being the substitution death of Jesus at Calvary which redeems the lost. The RC Church believes and teaches that, too.

The Catholic Church teaches (in short) that God does the work but expects our cooperation with it. While salvation is his work, as St Augustine says, "God Who created us without us: will not save us without us."

Christ's death redeemed all of us potentially, but only actually redeems those who cooperate and allow God to work in us. He opened heaven, and gave the means to get there, but with His help we need to take those means.

So, if you're quoting someone, then obviously they have said something you think correct and authoritative. Who is this "someone"? Where does he get his authority to claim this?

I refer back to my question for you, however. You have made a bare claim: that Protestants (as a whole, not just yourself), reject Sola Fide. I would like you to show the teaching authority for why this is not true, else you are claiming to be your own authority, in which case either you are infallible, or you put yourself in a very precarious situation, seeing as you've admitted that correct belief does factor into our salvation, and if you are your own authority, then how could you ever know if you were actually correct?



RE: Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

But, my question. Who are you to judge a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where can I find the authority which determines this or sets it out? Obviously that cannot be the Bible, if so many so-called Christians can be at such wide variance in interpreting what seem like plain texts (e.g. John 6, and Matt 16.18). So, who or what is the authority for judging what is a "legitimate Protestant denomination"? Where do I find the list of standards or doctrines? How can I know that authority has this authority from God to make such a judgement? 

A "legitimate Protestant denomination" is one that accepts the Deity and Lordship of Jesus Christ. Other sects like the JWs, LDS Church and others do not. Any group that does not teach this cardinal tenet of the faith is not Christian, so they can be dismissed. Furthermore, any Catholic or Protestant or Evangelical who rejects the Deity of Christ is simply not a Christian. The source of this is the Bible, not me. The articles of the faith are spelled out in the Westminster Catechism, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Creeds - all of which teach the same thing.


Since clearly my salvation, according to you, depends on more than just "faith" but also some degree of correct belief, that seems a critical question. If I can be part of a "illegitimate" sect, then that would seem to impede my salvation (if it didn't it would seem to be "legitimate"), and so that list seems to be critical. Where is it found, or who do I seek out for that answer? I refer back to my question for you, however. You have made a bare claim: that Protestants (as a whole, not just yourself), reject Sola Fide. I would like you to show the teaching authority for why this is not true, else you are claiming to be your own authority, in which case either you are infallible, or you put yourself in a very precarious situation, seeing as you've admitted that correct belief does factor into our salvation, and if you are your own authority, then how could you ever know if you were actually correct?

Again, the original source is the Bible and is articulated in the Catechism and the Creeds. Our faith must have a legitimate object and that object is Jesus Christ. You and I believe that. As far as our faith walks go, the Book of James says, "Faith without works is dead" (2:18) and then this from James 2:24, "By works a man is justified and not by faith only". This is not a contradiction of "Sola Fide". What James is saying that man is not justified by faith that IS alone. In other words, faith without works is dead. 

(1 hour ago)Wingfold Wrote: Wrote:"Fiduciary Faith". Someone once said, "There are just two religions in the world and everyone believes in one or the other. You either believe in human achievement or you believe in divine accomplishment." Divine accomplishment being the substitution death of Jesus at Calvary which redeems the lost. The RC Church believes and teaches that, too.



RE: Catholicism - Wingfold - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 02:12 PM)Zedta Wrote: You're fishing with the wrong tackle. You won't get the fish you want here, me thinks. Any lost Catholic has fallen for the same lie that Satan has used to catch people from the first one in Eden: I know something that 'they' are keeping from you and if you follow me, I'll tell you.

I couldn't work on Adam, since he had full knowledge, but it did on Eve, because she didn't. Protestants only have part of the truth, waiting for the rest to be revealed. It never is, until they return to the fullness of faith: The Catholic Faith.

Remember brother: The KJV 'Bible' is an abridged bible, a Masonic version of the Bible. Take a close look at the opening pages of the very first KJV. It has Masonic imagery all over it. The KJV is enthroned in every Masonic Temple in the world. It has perpetrated a huge lie on many, thinking they are getting something withheld from them by the Catholic Church. You have been fooled, cunningly, but fully fooled.