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Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - MaryLover - 11-02-2020

I've been trying to finds Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs of the Italian Unification, but it's difficult and frustrating because there's very little information out there.

I know Charles Coulombe has written a book on the Papal Zouaves but I haven't got it yet; if any of you have read it, I'd really appreciate it if you would provide me with any names of noteworthy individuals. Right now I'm looking into Hermann Kanzler, the Pope's general, again there's very little information available on him and most of it is in Italian or other languages; what I so far looks decent, but I'm not sure if any it amounts to heroic virtue yet.

So far I have only a handful of names, and accounts of massacres but not so much in the terms heroic individuals, unless/maybe-until, I find more on Hermann Kanzler. Does anyone know any possible candidates for canonization?

If I do find that Hermann Kanzler is canonization-worthy and/or someone else who is worthy of canonization, how would I go about advancing his cause? Especially in this day and age and with this Pontificate?

Also, what if I find myself in a situation where I needed a miracle and prayed to Hermann Kanzler and got said miracle; how would that square with the rules surrounding canonization?


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - Naproxen - 11-02-2020

I don't think fighting and dying for the temporal power of the Papacy qualify for canonization.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - jovan66102 - 11-02-2020

I think Naproxen is right. To be a martyr, one must be killed in odium fidei (in hatred of the Faith). Give that the King of Italy and the vast majority of his soldiers were Catholics I don't see odium fidei. They were fighting the Head of State of a temporal power, not the Vicar of Christ.

In fact, even tho' Victor Emmanuel was excommunicated for his war against the Papal States, his excommunication was lifted on his deathbed, he received Last Rites, and died in the bosom of the Church.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - Naproxen - 11-02-2020

(11-02-2020, 09:43 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: In fact, even tho' Victor Emmanuel was excommunicated for his war against the Papal States, his excommunication was lifted on his deathbed, he received Last Rites, and died in the bosom of the Church.

This is why people have lost respect for the Church. In recent times, to include the instance you pointed out, it has acted weak. Nobody wants to be a follower of a weak authority. The Pope at the time should have refused lifting the King's excommunication until the Pope was restored to all of his former lands. Had the Pope let the King sweat in terror on his deathbed; to die without the last rites (probably be damned to Hell), and be denied a Christian burial would have been a great power move to show the world that the Church does not play around. Weak move, your Holiness.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - jovan66102 - 11-02-2020

You're calling Blessed Pius IX, Hammer of Heretics, who issued the Syllabus of Errors, who faced down the entire world when he said, '[It is a condemned proposition that] 80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.'- -Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861, and who fought as long as he could to hold the Papal States, a 'weak Pope'? ROTFLMAO!!!


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - Naproxen - 11-03-2020

(11-02-2020, 11:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: You're calling Blessed Pius IX, Hammer of Heretics, who issued the Syllabus of Errors, who faced down the entire world when he said, '[It is a condemned proposition that] 80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.'- -Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861, and who fought as long as he could to hold the Papal States, a 'weak Pope'? ROTFLMAO!!!

A weak temporal leader and Sovereign of Papal States, yes. 

I don't understand how anyone could consider someone a "strong" leader if he loses 100% of his country's land and population to a foreign nation. And the fact that his successors were only able to recover less than 1% of the Papal States (Vatican City State) goes to show how destructive Pius IX's loss was. Temporally, he was a LOSER who should have resigned in disgrace. I don't know how he lived with himself after such a massive defeat. Many a heads of state have resigned and drunk themselves to death in exile over lesser losses. Pope Pius IX seemed to be a very good Pope when it came to spiritual matters, though.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - MaryLover - 11-03-2020

(11-02-2020, 09:43 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I think Naproxen is right. To be a martyr, one must be killed in odium fidei (in hatred of the Faith). Give that the King of Italy and the vast majority of his soldiers were Catholics I don't see odium fidei. They were fighting the Head of State of a temporal power, not the Vicar of Christ.

In fact, even tho' Victor Emmanuel was excommunicated for his war against the Papal States, his excommunication was lifted on his deathbed, he received Last Rites, and died in the bosom of the Church.
Yes, but there were accounts of sacrileges committed, and not just during the first time that Rome was captured and Garibaldi's troops set-off fireworks on Good Friday to revel Our Lord's Crucifixion.

There are also accounts of many un-Catholic atrocities being committed, like the razing of Pontelandolfo and Casalduni and the graphic treatment of it's citizens as is recounted here: http://www.sanfelesesocietynj.org/History%20Articles/The%20Assumption%20Articles/The_Massacre_At_Pontelandolfo.htm


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - MaryLover - 11-03-2020

(11-03-2020, 12:08 AM)Naproxen Wrote:
(11-02-2020, 11:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: You're calling Blessed Pius IX, Hammer of Heretics, who issued the Syllabus of Errors, who faced down the entire world when he said, '[It is a condemned proposition that] 80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.'- -Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861, and who fought as long as he could to hold the Papal States, a 'weak Pope'? ROTFLMAO!!!

A weak temporal leader and Sovereign of Papal States, yes. 

I don't understand how anyone could consider someone a "strong" leader if he loses 100% of his country's land and population to a foreign nation. And the fact that his successors were only able to recover less than 1% of the Papal States (Vatican City State) goes to show how destructive Pius IX's loss was. Temporally, he was a LOSER who should have resigned in disgrace. I don't know how he lived with himself after such a massive defeat. Many a heads of state have resigned and drunk themselves to death in exile over lesser losses. Pope Pius IX seemed to be a very good Pope when it came to spiritual matters, though.
Hermann Kanzler didn't view Blessed Pius IX as a loser, after the seizure of Rome he refused to go home he remained at his Holy Father's side in the rest of his life in the Vatican, until his own death in 1888.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - MaryLover - 11-03-2020

(11-03-2020, 01:17 AM)MaryLover Wrote:
(11-02-2020, 09:43 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I think Naproxen is right. To be a martyr, one must be killed in odium fidei (in hatred of the Faith). Give that the King of Italy and the vast majority of his soldiers were Catholics I don't see odium fidei. They were fighting the Head of State of a temporal power, not the Vicar of Christ.

In fact, even tho' Victor Emmanuel was excommunicated for his war against the Papal States, his excommunication was lifted on his deathbed, he received Last Rites, and died in the bosom of the Church.
Yes, but there were accounts of sacrileges committed, and not just during the first time that Rome was captured and Garibaldi's troops set-off fireworks on Good Friday to revel Our Lord's Crucifixion.

There are also accounts of many un-Catholic atrocities being committed, like the razing of Pontelandolfo and Casalduni and the graphic treatment of it's citizens as is recounted here: http://www.sanfelesesocietynj.org/History%20Articles/The%20Assumption%20Articles/The_Massacre_At_Pontelandolfo.htm
Also, I forgot to mention, Catholic accounts at the time, such as the Quebec newspaper Le Minerve, (which was approved Bishop Ignace Bourget) described the seizures as acts of sacrilege.


RE: Pro-Papal States Saints and Martyrs - Naproxen - 11-03-2020

(11-03-2020, 01:17 AM)MaryLover Wrote: Yes, but there were accounts of sacrileges committed, and not just during the first time that Rome was captured and Garibaldi's troops set-off fireworks on Good Friday to revel Our Lord's Crucifixion.

There are also accounts of many un-Catholic atrocities being committed, like the razing of Pontelandolfo and Casalduni and the graphic treatment of it's citizens as is recounted here: http://www.sanfelesesocietynj.org/History%20Articles/The%20Assumption%20Articles/The_Massacre_At_Pontelandolfo.htm

Massacring entire towns during war wasn't unusual back then and what proof do you have that it was primarily due to the townspeople's faith? Weren't the Piedmontese soldiers Catholic? And fireworks on Good Friday? That won't cut it.

(11-03-2020, 01:19 AM)MaryLover Wrote: Hermann Kanzler didn't view Blessed Pius IX as a loser, after the seizure of Rome he refused to go home he remained at his Holy Father's side in the rest of his life in the Vatican, until his own death in 1888.

That's called loyalty. What's your point in mentioning that?