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Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - Printable Version

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RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - Paul - 11-28-2020

(11-28-2020, 03:39 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I look at that statement in this way: Sure, "freedom of religion", which is to say one cannot be forced to follow Catholicism nor any other religion (true and consistent with Church teaching).  "Civil authorities are bound to recognize that right."  Sure, which is to say you cannot impose a state religion, whatever it may be, and force people to follow it.  People have the right to follow the religion of their choosing (which, again, means you cannot force someone to convert, which is what the Church teaches).

Nobody has the right to believe something that is false. False beliefs, and even public expression of false beliefs, can be tolerated to achieve some good such as peace in society, but toleration is not a right. The state absolutely can impose a state religion - which should be Catholicism - even if it doesn't make it a crime not to go to Mass. And the state can forbid public non-Catholic or non-Christian worship, and Catholic states in the past often did. There's no right to build a mosque in Rome.

Here's what the Council actually said:

Quote:2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

Your interpretation of 'no forced conversion' might be the right one. But it seems to say more than that, and given the past teachings of the Church towards other religions, the SSPX should be given an explanation before being asked to accept Vatican II being fully orthodox. The Syllabus of Errors condemns this: "Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." Vatican II seems to say exactly that.

Perhaps the out is 'within due limits', which would mean 'whatever limits previous Popes and Councils have taught'. And Paul VI said the Council had no new teaching but was pastoral, not doctrinal.


RE: Is it everOK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - MagisterMusicae - 11-29-2020

(11-28-2020, 11:49 AM)NSMSSS Wrote: The Council is without error and fully orthodox (in so far as one can look at the vagueness of the documents and say, "Well, you're not wrong").

Cite a single authoritative magisterial source which says that Vatican II in infallible (i.e. without error).

I would note that Msgr Athanasius Schneider, the Holy See's official visitor/delegate to the SSPX seminaries in 2012, in 2013 publicly called for a "correction" to Vatican II because of its errors and ambiguities. I won't link to the interview because it came from a Catholic news organization that afterward became a salacious tabloid, but you're welcome to look for that interview if you want.

(11-28-2020, 11:49 AM)NSMSSS Wrote: It is a whole host of scandalous actions that have been done in the name of the Council that are erroneous and unorthodox.

Dignitatis Humanæ is directly contrary to previous teachings, specifically, Pius XI's Mortalium animos, Leo XIII's Libertas and Immortale Dei, Gregory XVI's Mirari Vos, and Bl. Pius IX's Quanta Cura. In those documents the notion that one had a civil right to believe in error is infallibly condemned.

The only people who have even attempted to "save" Dignitatis Humanæ are Fr Brian Harrison, and Dr Thomas Pink. Both have been shown to be inadequate to establish the doctrine taught by Dignitatis Humanæ as compatible with those or taught by the magisterium before Vatican II. Dubia submitted to the Holy See have gone unanswered.

(11-28-2020, 11:49 AM)NSMSSS Wrote: I only go based on what I have heard from those who have a far better knowledge of the ins-and-outs of the SSPX and what they have relayed to me.

So you're entire position against the SSPX is built on hearsay. Not a very good foundation.

Is this people who have direct contact with the superiors, or just people who "know" things? Usually the latter are worth about as much as you pay for their advice.

(11-28-2020, 11:49 AM)NSMSSS Wrote: Many within the SSPX don't accept the NO when it is a valid Mass.

What is this supposed to mean?

They don't accept it as a valid Mass? or they think it is valid, but reject it?

If the latter, does that not just go back to the questions I asked Pandora?


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - MagisterMusicae - 11-29-2020

(11-28-2020, 02:57 PM)Paul Wrote:
(11-28-2020, 01:57 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: Correct, no one should ever knowingly and willingly participate in a sacrilege.  The question is when does the Mass become a sacrilege?  At that point, the Mass would also become invalid, wouldn't it?

No, it wouldn't. 'Valid' means that there's a consecration of the bread and wine and the Sacrifice is offered. The priest could do all sorts of other things during Mass to make a mockery of it, including dressing as a clown, but that wouldn't invalidate the Mass.

This is precisely why I asked Pandora about this.

A Black Mass (provided it's actually confecting the Sacrament, and not just using a pre-consecrated host), is a valid Mass. Obviously scandalous, a sacrilege and to be avoided.

This means that validity is not the criteria for whether a Mass could be, or must be attended.

If there is a point at which a Mass could become a sacrilege, though, and it is not well-defined, or authoritatively defined, then it seems that a priest who is well-studied in moral theology, unless there is some contrary teaching, could make the determination that the changes which produced the Novus Ordo Mass make it into a sacrilege and so it must be avoided if that is understood. He could be wrong in that, but then the argument is a theological one, and so is a bit more complex than the simplistic rejoinders and opinion based on hearsay that you, NSMSSS, seem to like to offer.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - NSMSSS - 11-29-2020

(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: So you're entire position against the SSPX is built on hearsay. Not a very good foundation.

Fair enough.  I'm not out to build any kind of a structured argument against the SSPX or for anything else, but the bottom line is the SSPX is canonically irregular, and they are the ones who have to bend, if you will, to fix that.  They're not bending, and that's their choice.

(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Is this people who have direct contact with the superiors, or just people who "know" things? Usually the latter are worth about as much as you pay for their advice.

I don't mind mentioning as a matter of full disclosure that most of what I know about the SSPX comes from SSPX faithful I know and a particular FSSP priest who knows Fr. Josef Bisig sufficiently well.  I have also hear Father Bisig speak at length on the founding of the FSSP and his experience with the SSPX.  A biased source, sure, but no source is going to be unbiased in any case.

I'm not trying to brush aside the points you've raised, but I will readily admit I'm not a theological student or have studied sufficiently the issues with the Vatican II to give a qualified comment.  I guess my bottom line is that I accept the continuity, cumbersome at it may be, so that I do not find myself among the irregular or the schismatic.  There have been many scandals throughout Church history but never has it given a licence for anybody to strike off and say they can operate without giving much care to what the Curia says.

(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: They don't accept it as a valid Mass? or they think it is valid, but reject it?

They don't accept it as a valid Mass.  One SSPX faithful I know asserts up and down that the NO is invalid and illicit.  I can't say how many SSPX faithful would agree, but he's definitely not the only one who would think this.

(11-29-2020, 12:34 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If there is a point at which a Mass could become a sacrilege, though, and it is not well-defined, or authoritatively defined, then it seems that a priest who is well-studied in moral theology, unless there is some contrary teaching, could make the determination that the changes which produced the Novus Ordo Mass make it into a sacrilege and so it must be avoided if that is understood.

I was speaking more so about deviations from the Missal and at what point the Mass becomes no longer the Mass.

Let's take a scenario I had the unfortunate pleasure of witnessing a few years ago.  I was at a NO out of town where the priest was more or less improvising his own version of Eucharistic Prayer II.  He got befuddled and missed the consecration.  When the cantor was next up, he attempted to sing the response to Mysterium Fidei (to get us back on track somehow, I suppose), but the priest "corrected" him that he should be singing the Amen at this point (as he had gone past the point the consecration would have taken place and was into the latter part of his improvised EP), and then he proceeded to the Pater Noster.  Finally, just before the Angus Dei, he turns to the cantor and asks him in front of everyone, "Did I miss the consecration?"  After being told yes, he shoehorned in the consecration (using his own words, again, patterned off EP II) and the continued with the Angus Dei.

So, aside from the questioning I had about the creative use of his own version of a Eucharistic Prayer, given how much he royally messed it up, I was questioning whether the consecration actually ended up happening or not in any sort of a valid form; and if it was invalid, then what he would have done would be officially termed sacrilegious, would it not?  He clearly disrespected the rules of saying the black and doing the red and disrespected it so badly that he did not even follow proper form in performing the sacrifice.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - LionHippo - 11-29-2020

The title of this thread is, "Is it ever ok to attend a Novus Ordo Mass." And the answer is a simple "yes."


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - Justin Tertius - 11-29-2020

Quote:NSMSSS Wrote:
MagisterMusicae Wrote: Wrote:They don't accept it as a valid Mass? or they think it is valid, but reject it?

They don't accept it as a valid Mass.  One SSPX faithful I know asserts up and down that the NO is invalid and illicit.  I can't say how many SSPX faithful would agree, but he's definitely not the only one who would think this

I am Catholic who goes to chapels which are served by the SSPX. 

My question to you, so what? 

Who cares what some SSPX faithful think. They don't actually get to make official decisions for the Society. If you want to understand what the Society thinks, ask them about it.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - NSMSSS - 11-29-2020

(11-29-2020, 01:23 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Who cares what some SSPX faithful think. They don't actually get to make official decisions for the Society.

True, they do not, but for anyone to say the Novus Ordo is invalid and illicit and to try to convince others of this would be a scandal because it is simply not true.

Though as has been quoted earlier in this thread, the SSPX themselves do not encourage attendance at the Novus Ordro to fulfil a Sunday obligation if it is one's only option, which is also incorrect.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - Justin Tertius - 11-29-2020

(11-29-2020, 01:48 PM)NSMSSS Wrote:
(11-29-2020, 01:23 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Who cares what some SSPX faithful think. They don't actually get to make official decisions for the Society.

True, they do not, but for anyone to say the Novus Ordo is invalid and illicit and to try to convince others of this would be a scandal because it is simply not true.

Invalidity and illicit are distinct things. I'll let others with better theological training the myself draw that out.

If you have a problem with people saying the N.O. Missae is invalid, then take it up with them specifically. The SSPX does not hold that position.

Quote:Though as has been quoted earlier in this thread, the SSPX themselves do not encourage attendance at the Novus Ordro to fulfil a Sunday obligation if it is one's only option, which is also incorrect.

I don't encourage attendance either, and for various reasons. One has to deal with those reasons and assess whether or not he thinks attendance at the Novus Ordo would be detrimental to his faith. 

I think that it would be a danger, which is why I do not attend.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - NSMSSS - 11-29-2020

(11-29-2020, 02:07 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Invalidity and illicit are distinct things. I'll let others with better theological training the myself draw that out.

That doesn't change the fact that neither are applicable to the Novus Ordo.

(11-29-2020, 02:07 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: If you have a problem with people saying the N.O. Missae is invalid, then take it up with them specifically. The SSPX does not hold that position.

No, but again, as quoted earlier in this thread, they would encourage you to stay home if your only option is the Novus Ordo.

(11-29-2020, 02:07 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: I don't encourage attendance either, and for various reasons. One has to deal with those reasons and assess whether or not he thinks attendance at the Novus Ordo would be detrimental to his faith. 

I think that it would be a danger, which is why I do not attend.

Not all Novus Ordos can be termed dangerous.  There are some priests who celebrate it properly according to the rubrics.  I will readily admit that's a small number, but they exist nonetheless.

Even then, it still may not be a danger to your faith if you are well grounded in your faith and can withstand others' mistakes.  You should be fulfilling your Sunday obligation.  It would have to be a very grave circumstance for it to be better for you to stay home than to not go to the only Mass available if it's a Novus Ordo.  It may be unpleasant, but you can offer up the graces you can receive at that Mass for the reparation of the situation.


RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - MagisterMusicae - 11-29-2020

(11-29-2020, 08:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote:
(11-29-2020, 02:07 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: If you have a problem with people saying the N.O. Missae is invalid, then take it up with them specifically. The SSPX does not hold that position.

No, but again, as quoted earlier in this thread, they would encourage you to stay home if your only option is the Novus Ordo.

You keep bringing this point up, again, as if it were a clear and obvious problem, that we should all see as evidence of the SSPX's incorrect position.

You fail to see the reason why the SSPX makes this argument. That's pretty critical and was the whole point of discussing the Black Mass or Methodist-Catholic hybrid service I proposed as a thought experiment.

(11-29-2020, 08:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: Not all Novus Ordos can be termed dangerous.  There are some priests who celebrate it properly according to the rubrics.  I will readily admit that's a small number, but they exist nonetheless.

And why does celebrating according to the rubrics guarantee that a Novus Ordo Mass is not a danger to one's faith?

(11-29-2020, 08:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: It would have to be a very grave circumstance for it to be better for you to stay home than to not go to the only Mass available if it's a Novus Ordo.

Would my hybrid Methodist-Catholic ceremony be a reason to stay home?

What circumstances to you think would justify staying home?