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Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Printable Version

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Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Bataar - 05-20-2021

The Church is One

There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism . . . and only one body (which is the one Catholic Church). Jesus only built one church. At Pentecost, all the disciples were together as one in obedience to Jesus, in union with Mary and the Apostles, under this one authority of Peter, the one shepherd Jesus put over every one of his sheep. The Catholic Church has always remained one in her faith, worship and government no matter how many have chosen to leave the one ark of Catholic unity.

The Vatican II Council denied the unity of the church by saying that the one true Church of Christ only subsists in the Catholic Church and is found outside of her in different religions.

The Church is Holy

The Church is holy because of the Holy Ghost who indwells each one of her members from holy Baptism as long as they stay in the state of grace. The Holy Ghost is the soul of the church. The Church is set apart from the world to be the holy Bride of Christ and to offer God the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Mary is the exemplar of the Church in her immaculate virgin sinlessness. In every age the Church has produced saints outstanding in true holiness.

The Vatican II church destroys the holiness of the Church in many ways; by offering new doubtful and invalid sacraments; promoting blasphemous and sacrilegious worship with false religions and idols; allowing holy communion to non Catholics and non repentant adulterers; by giving tacit approval to same sex unions; by bringing profane entertainment into the liturgy.

The Church is Catholic

The Church is Catholic because from the day of Pentecost on, it preached to and baptized people from every tribe and tongue and out of every nation on earth. It is only in her Lord Jesus Christ, and only in her communion, that all of the nations of the earth are blessed with the true Kingdom of God as He promised to Abraham long ago. The Catholic Church teaches the whole Gospel, exists in every age, and in every nation. It's universal.

The ecumenical Vatican II church attempts to destroy the Church's catholicity by abandoning the Church's mission to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The Novus Ordo "church" has agreed not to try to convert the Jews or the Orthodox, and generally to no longer evangelize anyone.

The Church is Apostolic

The Church is Apostolic because Christ appointed 12 of His many disciples as apostles and gave them alone authority to bind, loose, and teach in His name. To Peter, He also gave the Keys of the Kingdom and the task of feeding and tending all of his sheep without exception. So, when Peter stood up to preach with the other apostles on the Day of Pentecost, Christ's hierarchal authority structure was already in place to preach the deposit of faith. 

Vatican II destroyed the apostolic foundations of the Church with "collegiality" and by turning it upside down. Bergoglio's remarks have destroyed the dignity of the papacy. His "church" is no longer the apostolic teacher of all nations. It has become the so called listening church, listening to the whims of national bishop's councils, to the laity, to feminists, to youth, to gays, to other religions, to atheists, even to the cry of the Amazon. Modernism changes the apostolic doctrine.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Memories_in_Rain - 05-20-2021

Sigh... I really dislike the “subsists in” argument against Vatican II. How many times does Ratzinger have to say that “subsists in” doesn’t mean what traditionalists think it means? Ratzinger made it very clear, and was quite convincing when saying it, that “subsists in” is no heresy and not what you just said it meant. 

I’m a Sedeprivationist, but some arguments for sedevacantism are just too repetitive and have been done and refuted so, SO many times. 

I’ll trust Ratzinger’s explanation of “subsists in”, there are plenty of other errors in VII that need to be addressed, and this isn’t one of them.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - AlNg777 - 05-20-2021

(05-20-2021, 06:14 PM)Bataar Wrote: The Church is One

There is only one Lord, one faith, .
This is a question that I had also: Whether or not  the Vatican Church today is One. I think that there are several differences of belief which are subsisting in the Church today. For example:
Capital punishment 
Limbo
the Blood was shed for all or for many.
Is the filioque necessary or not (it is omitted in the Eastern Catholic churches)
Communion in the hand 
The Jews are the elder brothers in the faith of Catholics
Marriage annulments for flimsy reasons. Are some annulments a Catholic divorce in a dishonest way. 
blessing of same sex couples
Should women wear head covering in church as St. Paul advises
Should women give the communion service and the blessing
Should pro-abortion politicians receive Holy communion
Is the punishment by the fire of Purgatory similar to the fire of Hell.
Is it OK for Catholic married couples who contracept to receive Holy Communion. 
Is swearing a sin.
Is it a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic to proselytize an Eastern Orthodox Christian. 
Has there been a change in the Catholic teaching on torture.
Since there is no unity on these issues,  would that not mean that  the Church today does not possess the mark of unity?


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Marmot - 05-21-2021

A lot of people who are officially Catholics do not have the virtue of faith at all, and hence cannot be mentioned as an argument against the unity of Faith in the Church today. Then there are many who do have faith but are in error about what the Catholic doctrine is. But this has been the case throughout history, and doesn't contradict the unity of the Church at all. See Catholic Encyclopedia:
Catholic Encyclopedia, Unity (as a Mark of the Church) Wrote:In regard to faith or doctrine it may be here objected that in none of the Christian sects is there strict unity, since all of the members are not at all times aware of the same truths to be believed. Some give assent to certain truths which others know nothing of. Here it is important to note the distinction between the habit and the object of faith. The habit or the subjective disposition of the believer, though specifically the same in all, differs numerically according to individuals, but the objective truth to which assent is given is one and the same for all. There may be as many habits of faith numerically distinct as there are different individuals possessing the habit, but it is not possible that there be a diversity in the objective truths of faith. The unity of faith is manifested by all the faithful professing their adhesion to one and the same object of faith. All admit that God, the Supreme Truth, is the primary author of their faith, and from their explicit willingness to submit to the same external authority to whom God has given the power to make known whatever has been revealed, their faith, even in truths explicitly unknown, is implicitly external. All are prepared to believe whatever God has revealed and the Church teaches. Similarly, accidental differences in ceremonial forms do not in the least interfere with essential unity of worship, which is to be regarded primarily and principally in the celebration of the same sacrifice and in the reception of the same sacraments. All are expressive of the one doctrine and subject to the same authority.



RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - ServusDei - 05-21-2021

The Church is One, not because its members don't disagree about anything, but because when in the state of grace, they all partake in the life of grace, and are temples of the Holy Spirit.

The Church is Holy, not because of its members' individual holiness, but because its Head is Christ Himself.

The Church is Catholic, not because of any efforts of the professed members thereof, but because the Gospel is open to men of all nations.

The Church is Apostolic, not because all of the clergy are in line with Tradition, but because our clergy's ordination can be traced back to the Apostles, and draw their authority therefrom.

There is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is the Catholic Church. It has always been, and will always be these things. Seeing some bad things going on, or some bad people doing bad things, is neither ground to deny the authenticity of the Church nor its authority. Don't be Martin Luther.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Bataar - 05-21-2021

(05-21-2021, 04:01 PM)ServusDei Wrote: The Church is One, not because its members don't disagree about anything, but because when in the state of grace, they all partake in the life of grace, and are temples of the Holy Spirit.

The Church is Holy, not because of its members' individual holiness, but because its Head is Christ Himself.

The Church is Catholic, not because of any efforts of the professed members thereof, but because the Gospel is open to men of all nations.

The Church is Apostolic, not because all of the clergy are in line with Tradition, but because our clergy's ordination can be traced back to the Apostles, and draw their authority therefrom.

There is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is the Catholic Church. It has always been, and will always be these things. Seeing some bad things going on,  or some bad people doing bad things, is neither ground to deny the authenticity of the Church nor its authority. Don't be Martin Luther.
I pretty much agree with you 100%. I just don't believe the Novus Ordo church is the Catholic Church. The conciliar popes and leaders of that church have been the Martin Luthers.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - VoxClamantis - 05-21-2021

(05-20-2021, 09:24 PM)AlNg777 Wrote: (snip)
The Jews are the elder brothers in the faith of Catholics
(snip)

On Jewish people being Catholics' "elder brothers": https://www.fisheaters.com/jc-jones1.html


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - ServusDei - 05-21-2021

(05-21-2021, 05:04 PM)Bataar Wrote: I pretty much agree with you 100%. I just don't believe the Novus Ordo church is the Catholic Church. The conciliar popes and leaders of that church have been the Martin Luthers.

But aside from that Church, there appears no reasonable alternative with all four marks, at least in my opinion, although I'm curious if you have an alternative if the illegitimacy of this church is established. I personally see no discrepancies in the manner in which the Papacy has been transferred to Pope Francis, and I believe it's every Catholic's obligation to avoid schism and remain in communion with Him.

I honestly don't know what I'd believe or where I'd turn if I didn't see the current Church as the true Church. I guess my inclination would be to find the true Pope and follow obediently. As things stand, for me that's Francis. I'm aware that there is a lot of unrest and turmoil in the Church today, and for that reason I don't enmesh myself in them any more than personally affects me, but I'm certainly not without my own fears and doubts. Regardless, I pray for His Holiness, I do my best, and I trust everyone else, clergy and laity, to do the same; we all have the same goal.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - jovan66102 - 05-21-2021

(05-21-2021, 09:30 PM)ServusDei Wrote: we all have the same goal.

But therein lies the problem. Do we really 'all have the same goal'? It is obvious that many of the clergy no longer really believe in personal sin ('social sin' may be a different matter), that many have doubts about the possibility of eternal damnation, of the infallibility of the Church, etc. I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift.


RE: Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church? - Happy Boy - 05-21-2021

Of course it does. What sort of ridiculous attention seeking question is this? The question is the product of pride. The "norvus ordo" church. If this is not the Church, then Christ has lied.