Universae Ecclesiae released - full English text
#11
(05-13-2011, 07:20 AM)mcwhite Wrote: Diocesan priests cannot be ordained according to old rite.

I don't have a big problem with that. A priest who wants to go TLM only should be joining the FSSP in the first place or what have you. The idea behind this rule is the abolition of minor orders, now only available for the Ecclesia Dei groups like the FSSP

(05-13-2011, 07:20 AM)mcwhite Wrote: Those who question the 'legitimacy' of the new rite are anathema (including Cardinal Ratzinger of banal, on the spot product fame).

That really struck me too. I was thinking of FE loners with no TLM out in the sticks. I'm reading UE and thinking wow, this document is really strong on the right of faithful to have access to the TLM

UE Wrote:8. The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum... has the aim of:
a. offering to all the faithful the Roman Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, considered as a precious treasure  to be preserved;
b. effectively guaranteeing and ensuring the use of the forma extraordinaria for all who ask for it

But then I realized an FE loner attending no mass whatsoever tends to be an SSPX sympathizer which means they're "disqualified" under UE from asking for a local diocesan TLM. Groan.

UE Wrote:19. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.

(05-13-2011, 07:20 AM)mcwhite Wrote: Bishops have retained all of their ability to frustrate the aspirations of the faithful...

and we will have recourse to a sub-Diacestry for arbitration who took 4 years to issue a document which adds very little to the original.

Sigh...

Well, that's the crux of the matter, whether Ecclesia Dei are gonna man up and kick ass or not. Otherwise it's just more status quo and the weak seminary rules means we'll have to wait longer for the church to be purified from within.
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#12
So how do people feel about updating the missal to include saints canonized since 1962?

I am concerned this will make me have to buy a new missal >.<  

Is that a bad reason?
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#13
I think Ecclesia Dei has acted against some bishops. Are there bishops out there who are actively resisting? Does anyone here know of people who have reported such cases to Rome? What was the result?

C.
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#14
I find article 19 curious. Why would someone who doubts the validity of the Sacraments in their modern form be approaching a diocesan priest to say the TLM in a diocesan church?

Other then that I find alot of "pastoral needs" and "shoulds" scattered throughout.

I find this another weak pronoucement that will be filed in the circular file cabinet by modernists bishops. Any hopes I had of this pope restoring Tradition to its rightful spot are gone.
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#15
(05-13-2011, 07:21 AM)Raskolnikov Wrote: Just finished reading this on my phone, even though I'm at a party where I ought to be socializing. :p This is a step in the right direction, but I'm thoroughly disappointed nonetheless. It's weak, particularly with regards to the training of clergy and seminarians. It really should have been stronger on that issue. Nonetheless, it seems that bishops now can't issue diocesan norms which overrule or contradict the Motu Proprio, which is good.

Disappointing, but still good. Oh well. The battle isn't over yet.

It all seems like too many baby steps, really. What this changes is that hopefully some seminarians will now have the courage to insist on TLM and Latin training by being able to point to UE and won't have that fear of marginalization anymore.

I think he should've mandated TLM and Latin training though.

Fr Z Wrote:Can. 249 says that seminarians should be “very well-trained” (bene calleant) in Latin. That has not be obeyed even slightly in most seminaries, and yet during ordinations someone stands in front of the ordaining bishop and attests that the men were well-trained.  Also, given the mens of the Supreme Pontiff, and the statement that the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary are side by side, can they attest that the ordinands are well-trained if they don’t know half their Rite?  The older half?  The one with the actual history and track record?

Code of Canon Law Wrote:Can. 249 The program of priestly formation is to provide that students not only are carefully taught their native language but also understand Latin well and have a suitable understanding of those foreign languages which seem necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of pastoral ministry.

At my local diocesan seminary, Latin is optional. OPTIONAL! The seminarian assigned to my old NO parish planned to travel to the USA to do a Latin workshop this summer... so in this sense, I'm always scared by a document like UE because it makes me think that the Holy Father is disconnected from reality and doesn't realize what's actually going on in the "real world".

They should give a Latin exam to seminarians prior to ordination. If a government can required English or French proficiency for university why can't the church require it of its priests?
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#16
(05-13-2011, 07:33 AM)username123 Wrote: I find article 19 curious. Why would someone who doubts the validity of the Sacraments in their modern form be approaching a diocesan priest to say the TLM in a diocesan church?

Seems pretty straight forward.  It's just saying people can't ask for the TLM because they consider the Novus Ordo to be a masonic plot to take over the world.  
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#17
(05-13-2011, 07:35 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: If a government can required English or French proficiency for university why can't the church require it of its priests?

The U.S. government doesn't require this.
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#18
(05-13-2011, 07:29 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: So how do people feel about updating the missal to include saints canonized since 1962?

I am concerned this will make me have to buy a new missal >.<  

Is that a bad reason?

The SSPX in Montreal is very devoted to the newly canonized Saint Brother Andre... they credit the acquisition of their new priory to his intercession. He was canonized by Papa Benedetto last year.

Today is the feast of Our Lady of Fatima... in the new calendar only.

And who doesn't love Padre Pio, canonized by John Paul II?

Baronius and the FSSP would probably just create missal insert with added prayers. No need to reprint the whole missal. That would take awhile anyways.

(05-13-2011, 07:33 AM)username123 Wrote: I find article 19 curious. Why would someone who doubts the validity of the Sacraments in their modern form be approaching a diocesan priest to say the TLM in a diocesan church?

You have a point, so maybe it's meant as a bargaining chip vis-a-vis the SSPX? To keep the pressure on them to reconcile with Rome.
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#19
Rueters is reporting this as a return to the middle ages! Maybe this will turn out to be awesome if the media convinces everyone it has more teeth than it has :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/1...9120110513
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#20
It is an excellent document. It is dry and legalistic, unemotional and merely informative. All of the stipulations and rules in it are excellent.

As for the seminaries, I also would have liked a simple order. However, I think the PCED people behind this are smarter. For one thing, ordering the seminaries to teach this would have placed the instruction of the TLM into the hands of old men (and probably women) who hate it, and is that who you want teaching the fresh, new seminarians how to celebrate the TLM? The PCED are well aware that there are good seminaries and there are rotten seminaries, just as there are good bishops and rotten bishops. What will happen now will CLARIFY and distinguish and basically create two almost visibly-distinguishable classes: those who came from good seminaries, and those who did not. This visible difference is very important for us in the Church today. What do you think will happen when ecclesiastical charges have to be given, and two candidates show up, one with a whole education, and the other with half? And all new synods, Vatican conferences designed to further understanding of the liturgy and the mass, and even the ordinary form will involve references, examinations, and studies on the extraordinary form, so if you are a young priest and you do not want to be excluded from massive sections of the career part of your life, you will learn it, or have a professional ceiling placed above you. And as for good seminarians in bad seminaries, they will go to good ones, separating again the wheat from the chaff, or they will go to the many available workshops and meet excellent TLM seminarians from the many different corners of the world that they come from now. The document leaves the dead to bury the dead, the old, frustrated order to diminish itself by itself, and frees all those with good will to come out and forge the inevitable future.
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