Question on Jeremias and John the Baptist being sinless
#1
I need help locating something. 
 
I have heard it claimed in few places(not on paper) that the Council of Chalcedon taught that the Prophet Jeremiah and St John the Baptist were sinless.  I can't find this teaching(it seems I can only find abridged versions of most Ecumenical Councils).  If anyone can help me with this it would be greatly appreciated.
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#2
Interesting, since both predated Holy Baptism and until Christ was Cruscified, Heaven was closed and only The Bosom of Abraham held those who died under the Law. 
Additionally, only The Blessed Virgin was ever addressed as being "Full of Grace", as in being technically sinless. So, these other guys, predating The BVM, how could they be sinless?

Just curious.
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#3
There may be a difference here between what magnitude of sin we are talking about. I know that Tradition teaches that St. John the Baptist was sanctified in St. Elizabeth's womb at the Visitation, so he certainly would have been born sinless. I mean, to be born without personal sin is not the same as being Immaculately conceived like the Virgin Mary. St. John still had the stain of Original Sin on his soul, hence the legend that he was the Precursor to Limbo/Hell before Christ's descent. And I believe that there are other examples outside of Jeremiah of those who may have been born "righteous" i.e. without personal sin (but still Original Sin, a stain on human nature); Noah, Enoch, and Elijah come to mind. But this is all me just speculating. I can't say I definitively know for sure.
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#4
(12-19-2019, 11:34 PM)Zedta Wrote: Interesting, since both predated Holy Baptism and until Christ was Cruscified, Heaven was closed and only The Bosom of Abraham held those who died under the Law. 
Additionally, only The Blessed Virgin was ever addressed as being "Full of Grace", as in being technically sinless. So, these other guys, predating The BVM, how could they be sinless?

Just curious.
I have an awful memory and can't remember the various podcasts I've heard this on, so I was kind of limited to making a vague paraphrase(sinless was the best word I could think of, though I should have assumed and made clear it wasn't in an absolute sense).   It could be in reference to actual sins(though probably not in those in those terms), or simply referring to the fact that both saints were sanctified in the womb.  As far as I can tell there may or may not be anything resembling that in the Council at all.  Thus, I have decided to see if you fine folks on the fisheaters forum might have information on this.
My word choices are based on sound, not meaning.

Yes, that defeats the purpose of language.
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#5
I should clarify that my question is not a theological one.  

I'll simplify it to: 

         A: Does anyone know if the holiness SS John the Baptist and Jeremias are at all subject matter in the Council of Chalcedon? 


        B: If you are familiar with this claim and know it not to be the case, what is its the origin?
My word choices are based on sound, not meaning.

Yes, that defeats the purpose of language.
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#6
I know nothing about Jeremias, but I have heard that John was sanctified in the womb at the Visitation (hence, St Louis Marie de Montfort's Second Method of saying the Rosary has 'Jesus, sanctifying' as the phrase for the Second Joyful Mystery), and that he remained without personal sin.
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#7
(12-19-2019, 11:55 PM)Augustinian Wrote: There may be a difference here between what magnitude of sin we are talking about. I know that Tradition teaches that St. John the Baptist was sanctified in St. Elizabeth's womb at the Visitation, so he certainly would have been born sinless. I mean, to be born without personal sin is not the same as being Immaculately conceived like the Virgin Mary. St. John still had the stain of Original Sin on his soul, hence the legend that he was the Precursor to Limbo/Hell before Christ's descent. And I believe that there are other examples outside of Jeremiah of those who may have been born "righteous" i.e. without personal sin (but still Original Sin, a stain on human nature); Noah, Enoch, and Elijah come to mind. But this is all me just speculating. I can't say I definitively know for sure.
 
No one's born with personal sin, which I understand to be actual sins, the culpability for which requires knowledge and will, which babies wouldn't have. My understanding is that the Baptist was born without original sin. He wasn't conceived without it (as Mary was), but was cleansed of it (as Baptism does for us in this dispensation) while in St. Elizabeth's womb, when he recognized Christ in Mary's womb.
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#8
(12-20-2019, 12:31 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(12-19-2019, 11:55 PM)Augustinian Wrote: There may be a difference here between what magnitude of sin we are talking about. I know that Tradition teaches that St. John the Baptist was sanctified in St. Elizabeth's womb at the Visitation, so he certainly would have been born sinless. I mean, to be born without personal sin is not the same as being Immaculately conceived like the Virgin Mary. St. John still had the stain of Original Sin on his soul, hence the legend that he was the Precursor to Limbo/Hell before Christ's descent. And I believe that there are other examples outside of Jeremiah of those who may have been born "righteous" i.e. without personal sin (but still Original Sin, a stain on human nature); Noah, Enoch, and Elijah come to mind. But this is all me just speculating. I can't say I definitively know for sure.
 
No one's born with personal sin, which I understand to be actual sins, the culpability for which requires knowledge and will, which babies wouldn't have. My understanding is that the Baptist was born without original sin. He wasn't conceived without it (as Mary was), but was cleansed of it (as Baptism does for us in this dispensation) while in St. Elizabeth's womb, when he recognized Christ in Mary's womb.

This all does make sense, especially as regards St. John the Baptist. I've always thought there was a very special bond between the cousins. I figured he and Jesus were childhood friends, growing up together, since their age group would have been rather exclusive due to Herod's massacre and how close Jewish families are. They must have surly had a special bond. I'd also deduced that he and Jesus escaped to Egypt together with their parents and that is why John survived Herod too.

Interesting subject!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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