Hope or Presumption?
#91
Quote:Then you can support my assertion that Catholics may equally hope unbaptized infants <i>don't </i>have a way of salvation.  After all, God's mercy is commensurate with his justice, and we have no indication of a meritorious act taking place.

Yes, you may equally "hope" that infants dont have a way to salvation. Certainly, hope is not obligatory. To say it is required...is the opposite error to saying that one may not have it at all. One can certainly take our unknowing either way. And though I find such a position odd (why not have hope when you may?), it does serve to remind us that our hope cannot turn into presumption. That their salvation is certainly not a given.

But, you need to stop with this Pelagian idea that salvation is "merited" through baptism (or desire, martyrdom, etc). Those may be means or channels God uses, but you are using the term "merit" incorrectly to apply to them. The whole point of water baptism (especially an important reason to insist on infant baptism) is that salvation is entirely extraneous and gratuitous. It does not arise from any act or merit of ours. Grace is simply given to the non-resistant through water baptism, and potentially other channels God may use (including, likely, but not limited to...desire, blood, etc). Even in theoretical baptism of desire or blood, you must understand that the desire or martyrdom is, in itself, something totally free from God that the person would be able to consent to only if God offered it and enabled it first.
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Messages In This Thread
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:00 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Telemaque - 02-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 02-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 01:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-25-2009, 02:06 AM



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