The Church and fascism
#21
JonathanCid Wrote:
Quote:You are simply confusing terms. Frankly, you are doing it throughout your post.

I have been very clear about the terms, and you may seek their definitions.

Agreed, and I will hold you to those terms.

Quote:
Quote:The simple answer is: no.

The simple reason is: the Church existed having those properties long before the political theory of fascism. Therefore, it cannot be fascist. Maybe fascism stole some ideas, or got some ideas from the same source (i.e., the Roman Empire), but that doesn't make the Church fascist.

Quis, I understand what you're saying but I use the term "fascism" because, as I've demonstrated already, the Church meets the characteristics of fascism. I couldn't call the Fascism of Mussolini a perverted "political Catholicism" because Catholicism is not a political ideology/philosophy. But in terms of the Church's polity and political views, the Church meets the characteristics of fascism. And again, the negative associations of that word must be removed if one intends to be objective... if one associates feelings with the word, or allows their feelings and devotion for the Church to involve itself with definitions, one is not being objective.

No, the Church does not meet the characteristics of "fascism"; as I said, it cannot because "fascism" did not exist when the Church started nor throughout most of its history.  You cannot take an approach to governance that was invented in the early 1900's and apply it to 300 A.D.  What the Church was and is stands alone from fascism.

It has nothing to do with so-called negative feelings.  You can ask if the Church is tyrranical, totalitarian, etc., because those types of government and political policies did exist at its inception.  Fascism did not.

Asking if the Church is fascist is akin to asking if a horse and buggy is a sports car.

Quote:I couldn't call the Fascism of Mussolini a perverted "political Catholicism" because Catholicism is not a political ideology/philosophy.

Exactly.  And since Catholicism is not a political ideology/philosophy, you cannot apply the political ideological and philosophical term "fascist" to it without being intellectually dishonest.

Further, even if we were to ignore all these flaws in logic whereby the Church CANNOT be fascist, you are using a criteria of fascism that, as far as I can tell, was invented by you.  We can start simple and go from there.  Here's the dictionary definition:

<DD class=hwrd>fas·cism <A class=audio href="javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?fascis01.wav=fascism')" target=_blank target=_blank>[Image: audio.gif]</A> <DT class=pron>Pronunciation: <DD class=pron>\<SPAN class=unicode>ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\ </SPAN><DT class=func>Function: <DD class=func>noun <DT class=ety>Etymology: <DD class=ety>Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces <DT class=date>Date: <DD class=date>1921 <SPAN class="sense_label start">1often capitalized <B>:</B> a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content></SPAN> <SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church exalt nation above individual?  No.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church exalt race above individual?  No.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church have a centralized autocratic government?  No - the bishops are autonomous in their dioceses.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church have a dictatorial leader?  Yes, in the sense the Pope can issue bulls and define dogma unilaterally.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church have severe economic and social regimentation?  No.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content>Does the Church engage in forcible suppression of opposition?  Historically, yes; currently, no.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content></SPAN> <SPAN class=sense_content>So, even if we ignore the logical fallacy of applying a term from 1921 to something that existed in current form from like 300AD (at least), and if we take the dictionary definition of fascism, then it is clear the Church is not fascist because the only criteria it meets is the one you came up with yourself.</SPAN><SPAN class=sense_content></SPAN> <SPAN class=sense_content>If you want to be objective, then be objective.  Don't make the list of criteria fit the question;  ask the question with objective criteria.</SPAN></DD>
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Messages In This Thread
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 03-30-2009, 12:57 PM
The Church and fascism - by DrBombay - 03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
The Church and fascism - by alaric - 03-30-2009, 01:59 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 03-30-2009, 02:37 PM
The Church and fascism - by Bonifacius - 03-30-2009, 03:06 PM
The Church and fascism - by Bonifacius - 03-30-2009, 04:01 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 03-30-2009, 04:01 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 03-30-2009, 05:33 PM
The Church and fascism - by Cambrensis - 03-30-2009, 05:34 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 03-30-2009, 05:41 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 03-30-2009, 05:47 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 03-30-2009, 05:55 PM
The Church and fascism - by Bonifacius - 03-30-2009, 06:19 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 03-30-2009, 06:21 PM
The Church and fascism - by Bonifacius - 03-30-2009, 06:32 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-01-2009, 02:51 PM
The Church and fascism - by Norbert - 04-01-2009, 03:09 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-01-2009, 03:32 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-01-2009, 03:44 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-01-2009, 03:52 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-01-2009, 03:59 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-01-2009, 04:00 PM
The Church and fascism - by Norbert - 04-01-2009, 04:04 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-01-2009, 04:05 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-01-2009, 04:10 PM
The Church and fascism - by Marc - 04-01-2009, 04:28 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-01-2009, 06:51 PM
The Church and fascism - by HMiS - 04-02-2009, 02:52 AM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-02-2009, 05:13 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-02-2009, 05:31 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-02-2009, 05:32 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-02-2009, 05:50 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-02-2009, 06:09 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-02-2009, 06:40 PM
The Church and fascism - by Marc - 04-03-2009, 04:51 AM
The Church and fascism - by frerejacques - 04-03-2009, 09:07 AM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-03-2009, 05:52 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-03-2009, 06:09 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-03-2009, 07:31 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-03-2009, 08:39 PM
The Church and fascism - by kjvail - 04-03-2009, 08:56 PM
The Church and fascism - by JonathanCid - 04-03-2009, 09:11 PM
The Church and fascism - by Historian - 04-03-2009, 09:20 PM
The Church and fascism - by NathanSoc - 04-03-2009, 09:49 PM



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