Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses?
(04-24-2009, 04:21 PM)DrBombay Wrote: Let not your heart be troubled.  Go to the NO without any fear, especially if you are fortunate enough to find one without any grave abuses.  It's the same Mass the Vicar of Christ says every day. I'll take Christ's promise that His Church is indefectible over the ravings of amateur internet theologians anyday.

So the Pope is the universal standard of goodness? If does Pope does its ok?? Imagine if you lived in the time of Alexander 6th!!!!

About the indefectible issue Ill leave it to the good Fr.Scott: (underlining is mine)

"The misunderstanding here lies in the meaning of the term "indefectible". What do we mean when we call the Church indefectible? The catechism tells us that it means that the Church will last until the end of time as Christ founded it, that is without any substantial change. The Popes have repeated the "everlasting" (Leo XIII, Dz 1955) nature of the Church, rock solid until the end of time (Vatican I, Dz 1794), without which Our Lord’s words "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16:18) would not be true. However, that indefectibility does not necessarily lie in any particular exterior function of the hierarchy. If this were the case, the great Western Schism, with up to three parallel Popes at one time could not have existed, nor would the stringent limitations on Papal infallibility defined by Vatican I exist. The fact that the Pope is not always infallible means by definition that he can fail, as a person, as a teacher, for as long as he does not use the fullness of Papal authority to which infallibility is attached."

"Dr. Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma explains, to the contrary, the true nature of the Church’s indefectibility:

    "The intrinsic reason for the indefectibility of the Church of Christ lies in her inner relation with Christ, who is the Foundation of the Church (I Cor 3:11) and with the Holy Ghost, who dwells in her as essence and life-principle." (p. 297)"

"The indefectibility thus primarily consists in the divine life infused into the Church’s members through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments, and is in no way tainted by the human defects, imperfections and failures of members of the visible hierarchy, as high as they might be. Pope Pius XII points out in his magnificent 1943 encyclical On the Mystical Body of Christ (Mystici Corporis Christi) that although the Church’s hierarchy was instituted by Christ, it is not on such juridical structures that its indefectibility is founded:

    "Although the juridical principles, on which the Church rests and is established, derive from the divine constitution given to it by Christ and contribute to the attaining of its supernatural end, nevertheless that which lifts the Society of Christians far above the whole natural order is the Spirit of our Redeemer who penetrates and fills every part of the Church’s being and is active within it until the end of time as the source of every grace and every gift and every miraculous power." (§ 63)

It is in fact the enemies of Catholicism who see exclusively the external structure and who accuse the Catholic Church of "ecclesiastical formalism". This is Dom Aelred Graham’s term in The Teaching of the Catholic Church (Vol II, p. 730, Ed. Canon Smith, 1947), and here is his commentary:

    "The reason for this power of survival lies, not in the Church’s juridical elements, but in the indestructibility conferred upon her by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit and of Christ himself. The visible hierarchy, the elaborate Church organization, being inseparable from human imperfections, though a part of Our Lord’s plan from the beginning, have not in themselves the stuff of immortality. This they derive from the sources of grace and divine life within, the hidden riches of the Mystical Body which constitute the veritable "mystery of the Church."

"over the ravings of amateur internet theologians anyday. "

...... You think the people quoted, St.Thomas Aquinas, the writers of my way of life, the Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci and the group of theologians accompanying them, Ludwig Ott, Pius XII are amateur theologians?

Fine if you want to counter my words, and its purely because im a layman that you dont believe them, but try and counter theirs and give people THEOLOGICAL reasons why they can attend the New Mass.

Ranting on about Indefectibility (which im wondering do you understand) and confusing papal authority with papal infallibilty is hardly the way to do it. Lets see some theologians quoted, St.Thomas Aquinas for instance, or how about Ludwig Ott?


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Re: Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses? - by tradmaverick - 04-24-2009, 04:57 PM

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