Evolution
(11-01-2010, 04:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(10-30-2010, 04:55 PM)Nic Wrote: Catholic Thinker,

You clearly state that you don't hold to molecules-to-man macro evolution, and you also clearly state that you hold to an old earth, some billions of years old.  My only conclusion from your remarks is that you believe that God created man, as he is today, some billions of years ago.

I'm not the "Catholic Thinker", and I can't read his mind, but I would be willing to bet a large amount of money that the above statement does not accurately reflect his beliefs. Nobody believes that man, as he is today, has existed for billions of years, and that belief is not necessary unless you also insist on believing that the "6 days" of creation were 6 literal 24-hour days. And no self-respecting scientist believes that either. Such a literal reading of Genesis is untenable even without recourse to science. If you insist that everything in Genesis happened exactly as it says, down to every last detail, how do you reconcile the two different creation accounts? Did God create plants first (on the third day), then some of the animals (on the fifth day), then the rest of the animals, and finally, man and woman (on the sixth day), as in Genesis 1:9-31? Or did He create man first, and then the plants, and then the animals, and then woman, as in Genesis 2:4-22? You can't have it both ways. The two accounts contradict each other. The only way to reconcile this is to admit, as the Church does, that "in order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of speaking, feeling, and narrating then current" (Catchism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 110). The author(s) of Genesis were not writing to modern standards of historical and scientific accuracy.

It is possible for me to believe that God suspended or superceded the laws of science as we know them, in the process of creation, but I can't bring myself to believe that He did it, then started over and did it again in a different order -- which is what a literal reading of Genesis requires. And that's just one example -- I could come up with dozens more. But I'm not here to pick apart the Bible -- just to plead for some sense of sanity in reading it. It is possible for it to be "inerrant" in some sense without requiring literal accuracy of every detail. Because that would require you to tie your mind in knots and believe numerous mutually contradictory statements. And I'm not willing to do that. I will leave that to Protestant fundamentalists. Catholics are supposed to be more intelligent.


Many people try to undermine the inerrancy of Genesis 1 and 2 by pointing out alleged “inconsistencies” between the two creation accounts. Of course, if Scripture is not inerrant, then the secularists can advance any theory they wish about creation and the age of the earth. Following are the most common “inconsistencies” raised by the secularists:

1.  Plants created before or after Adam?

Gen. 1:11-12 – God says “Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed.”  In this account, God made plants before He made man.

Gen. 2:5 – it says “when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and not every herb of the field had yet sprung up,…God formed man of dust from the ground.” In this account, it appears that God made plants after He made man.  How do we reconcile the two accounts? Well, none of the early Church Fathers had a problem harmonizing the texts, so 21st century Westerners should have no problem doing so.

In Gen. 1:11-12, it says that God made “herb” and the “tree producing fruit.” This refers to two kinds of vegetation. Gen. 1:11-12 also says that this vegetation produced “seed” (in Hebrew, dashah). These types of vegetation evidently served as food for Adam and Eve.

In Gen. 2:5, it refers to the “shrub,” which is a third type of vegetation, to be distinguished from that which is described in Genesis 1. This is further demonstrated by the fact that the text says that the “shrub” of Genesis 2 had not yet produced seed (in Hebrew, tsemach).  This is different from the dashah produced by the vegetation in Genesis 1.

Finally, Gen. 2:5 says “not every herb of the field had yet sprung up.” This indicates that some vegetation did already spring up, which is the different kind of vegetation described in Gen. 1:11-12 (the fruit-bearing vegetation versus the vegetation that had yet to bear fruit). Thus, Gen. 1:11-12 describes vegetation which immediately produced fruit, and Gen. 2:5 refers to vegetation whose fruit would bud in the next generation.  Is this an inconsistency? No.

2.  Animals created before or after Adam?

Gen. 1:24-25 – it says that God made “living creatures” before He made man.

Gen. 2:7 – it says that God made man, and then in Gen. 2:19 it says that God made the “living creatures.” It thus appears that God made the animals after He made man, whereas in Genesis 1 it says that God made the animals before He made man. Is this an inconsistency? No.

In Gen. 2:19, it says “out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field…and every bird of the air and brought them to the man to see what he would call them.” The Hebrew for “formed” is yatsar, which is in the past tense (not the present tense). This means that God “had already formed” the beasts and birds before He made man, which is consistent with Gen. 1:24-25.

This is bolstered by the fact that Gen. 2:18 says God was trying to find a “suitable helper” for Adam. Why? Since God already knew that the animals would not serve that role, it seems obvious that He would not have created them after Adam, only to discover what He already knew (that the animals would not be suitable helpers for Adam). The animals were already created. God “had formed” them before Adam. This alternative account poignantly sets the stage for God’s creation of Eve, the true suitable helper for Adam, with whom he would “be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.”

3.  Wasn’t Eve was created years after Adam?

If liberal exegetes can prove that Eve was created years after Adam, this supports their claim that the six-day creation account cannot be interpreted literally.  To that end, the liberals point out that “the Lord God planted a garden in Eden…and made grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:8-9). The liberals argue that since it takes years for trees to grow, Eve could not have been created on the sixth day. Such an interpretation limits God’s ability to create trees using natural processes, which is not how God was creating during the miraculous creation week.

The more plausible (and correct) interpretation is that God created the trees ex nihilo, just as he created the heavens and the earth. The fact that Eve was later created ex nihilo from the side of Adam (as Pope Leo XIII affirms in Arcanum Divinae Sapientiae, 1880) demonstrates that God’s miraculous ex nihilo activity is occurring right to the very end of the creation week.

Similarly, the liberal exegetes point out that, after God created the trees in Gen. 2:8-9, He made a river flow out of Eden, which divided into four other rivers (Gen. 2:10). Again, they argue the creation of four rivers out of the river in Eden would have taken many years prior to the creation of Eve. Once again, such an argument limits God’s creating activity to natural processes. God could have created the rivers ex nihilo, and Gen 2:10 would only be describing how the newly created river of Eden joined them.

Alternatively, since Gen. 2:10 does not say that the four rivers were created at that time, the rivers could have been separated with the rest of the waters on day three (see Gen. 1:9-13). The days of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 correspond as follows:

Day One:              1:1-5; 2:4-7
Day Two:              1:6-8; 2:8
Day Three:          1:9-13; 2:9-14
Day Four:            1:14-19; 2:15
Day Five:            1:20-23; 2:16-17
Day Six:                1:24-31; 2:18-24
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Messages In This Thread
Evolution - by mirarivos - 10-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-21-2010, 09:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 09:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 04:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:41 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 12:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-24-2010, 08:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-25-2010, 09:10 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 10-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-26-2010, 08:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 10-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 10:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-29-2010, 08:09 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 08:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-30-2010, 09:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:55 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-30-2010, 11:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 12:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:41 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 08:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 09:39 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 10:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:43 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 01:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-31-2010, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 05:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 11-03-2010, 08:00 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 04:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-20-2010, 01:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-21-2010, 03:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-01-2010, 06:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 10:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by dnu - 12-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by sheep101 - 12-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 12-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-26-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-26-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-27-2010, 07:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:17 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 12-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 07:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-30-2010, 07:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 12:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-31-2010, 05:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-31-2010, 08:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 08:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 07:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 08:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by justlurking - 01-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 06:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Christus Imperat - 01-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 01-02-2011, 04:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-02-2011, 06:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by cathkath - 01-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by CrusaderKing - 01-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 01-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 01:46 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by cherylfoster - 01-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Metatron - 01-19-2011, 04:47 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 02-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-04-2011, 06:11 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 08:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by catholicSD - 04-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-09-2011, 08:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by mikemac - 04-15-2011, 03:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 04-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-21-2011, 11:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by UnamSanctam - 04-21-2011, 12:00 PM



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