Tornielli: “Peace” agreement reached between Vatican and Lefebvrians
(09-22-2011, 04:18 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(09-21-2011, 09:15 PM)JayneK Wrote: The Mass is Christ's sacrifice on the cross made present.  It is also a gathering a God's people.  It is also a foretaste of thuee Heavenly Banquet.  It is also an opportunity to receive Grace.  It is also an opportunity for the faithful to be instructed.  It is also the supreme prayer of the Church. It is also the New Passover. It is also the Lord's Supper. Etc. 

But the Mass is the Sacrifice; it's purpose is to make propitiation for sin. This is what Trent already defined. There are other functions of the Mass as well, but without they sacrifice they are ineffective. It is a sacrifice first and foremost. It is not a gathering first and foremost to celebrate Christ's presence among the people. 

If I were to invoke the Blessed Virgin as Our Lady Seat of Wisdom or as Queen of Apostles, this would not imply that I do not consider her the Mother of God. Nor would it mean that I do not consider that her most essential title.  When there are many true things to be said, saying one of them is not a denial of the others.  Just because the newer teaching mentions other true things about the Mass, it does not mean the teaching denies that the Mass is a Sacrifice that makes propitiation for sin.  That is still very much a teaching of the Church.  Nowhere does recent teaching say that the foremost meaning of the Mass is to celebrate Christ's presence among His people.  That is given as one aspect, not the most important aspect.
 
(09-22-2011, 04:18 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(09-21-2011, 09:15 PM)JayneK Wrote: It is a basic principle of theology that one ought to start with the presupposition that the magisterium is correct.

It is a basic principle of logic that one ought to start with one's premise.

You, however, assume that this is the magisterium when that is the very point being debated.

The magisterium is pristine. If only one error is taught using the teaching authority of the Church, it cannot be the magisterium.

And this is probably why you keep seeing heresies in Church teaching.  You want to see them because you do not want to accept the authority of the magisterium.  You see errors because you want to find errors.  There is no question in my mind that the Pope is truly the Pope and this is my starting premise.  That is not something that I wish to debate and it is against the rules of this forum to do so.

I have not been able to address all the points you raised, since I have limited time available for this forum.  Researching and replying to your posts would be a full-time job.  If you would raise one question at a time, I could show that the contradictions and errors you claim exist, do not.
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Re: Tornielli: “Peace” agreement reached between Vatican and Lefebvrians - by JayneK - 09-22-2011, 12:37 PM



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