Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(01-08-2012, 06:16 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-04-2012, 11:39 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Then the Catechism of the Council of Trent is perverting the doctrine of Divine Providence when it says "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters". It is speaking of impossibility BEFORE DEATH for adults, as it is does for babies.  If dying in grace and righteousness WITHOUT BAPTISM still sends the man to hell, than what is the point of  the Catechism talking about grace and righteousness at all?  If they don't matter as to salvation, then how is the risk for an adult less than the risk for a baby?

YOU are the ONLY one speaking about death for adults - well, you and BOD supporters overall - because death is never even implied in the Catechism of the Council of Trent's paragraph. Where does the catechism say impossibility BEFORE DEATH?

Answer - NOWHERE!

If you read what is written vs what you want it to say, you will see that the catechism echoes Trent and is in fact NOT rewarding salvation to one unbaptized - it is you who are doing that - please read what is written.

I'm trying to read what is written using human reason as best as I can.  Let me think it through again.

Look at more context in the Catechism of the Council of Trent:

(The whole section on baptism starts here: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thec...tism.shtml)
"Catechism of the Council of  Trent" Wrote:Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed

The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

Forget about adults for now.  Consider the case for babies.

This passage refers to the danger of delaying baptism for babies.  The danger is (1) that the baby may die without baptism, with the result (2) that the baby will not be saved.  (The reason the baby may die is because for anyone there is always a danger of death; but it is even greater with babies)

But why will babies certainly not be saved if they die before baptism?  Because "infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism".

Is the passage talking only about the chance that a baby will become sick but recover to be baptized later?  Clearly it is not; it is talking about the danger that the baby will die and not be saved.

Could the death of a baby before it is baptized be called an "unforeseen accident"?  It is certainly not intentional, and it is certainly unforeseen or else the baptism would have been done earlier (We are speaking of  true Catholics)

Have I said anything totally unreasonable yet? (Don't jump to conclusions about what I am thinking)

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OK.  Let's now consider comparing the danger of delaying baptism for babies to the danger of delaying baptism for adults.

Now, the primary danger of delaying baptism for a baby is that it may not be saved.  Would the Catechism compare that danger to a lesser danger for adults? Surely it would want to consider the danger to an adult's salvation too!  But the danger to a baby's salvation comes from dying without baptism. Would the Catechism compare that to an adult being sick and being baptized later?  Losing grace because of a delayed baptism does not cause damnation if  baptism comes later.  But we are talking about the danger of damnation!   

What is considered for babies is the unforeseen accident of death preventing baptism and salvation.  Isn't it just remotely possible that the Catechism would talk about about the same possibility for adults?  If you give give up all preconceived ideas, I don't see how you can fail to acknowledge this.

Here's what the Catechism actually says about adults:
"Catechism of the Council of Trent " Wrote:[adults] Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

Note the reference to "the case of infants, which we have already mentioned".  In the referenced text (earlier) death is explicitly spoken of as that which prevents a baby's baptism.  The adult case is talking about death too - this should already be clear!


The danger is that someone who dies before baptism would not be saved.  The reason that this danger exists for infants is that  "infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism".  What mitigates this danger for adults is that "their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness".    But why do we care about grace and righteousness, for someone who is not saved?!?  Is the Catechism saying that adults have it better than infants because they can have grace and righteousness just before they are damned?  Absurd.   Remember, we are not talking about "being sick and being baptized later"!  And the text certainly doesn't mention anything about later baptism. 

It is plain to me that the Catechism is saying that the Sacrament can be made impossible by the unforeseen accident of death, but that for adults the intention and determination  to receive Baptism will avail them to grace and righteousness, and hence to salvation. The Catechism is taking for granted what all Catholics should take for granted - that one who dies in the state of grace is saved. 

When I read the Catechism assuming your point of view, I have to contort its reasoning to fit.
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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - by Doce Me - 01-11-2012, 04:10 AM



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