My experience at the NO
#46
(01-25-2012, 07:54 PM)TrentCath Wrote: The fruits of the NO are evident, loss of faith, irreverence to our lord, a blurring of the line between the priesthood and the laity, a loss of what it means to be priest, sacrilege and the 'auto-demolition of the church'. The fact it was designed to convey the message of Vatican II and to remove 'anything too catholic' is reason enough to be wary of it, let alone the in depth studies done on it as shown by 'The Ottaviani Intervention' to name but one.

The loss of faith, irreverence, line-blurring, and demolition have nothing to do with the actual words of the Rite of 1969. Note that the rubrics do not say "here, the music ministers pick up their guitars and strum", or "at this point the liturgical dance begins". The skeletal rite, the words themselves, imply nothing like that. How is the faith lost by the New Mass, of itself, when it affirms the Name of the Lord and His Church constantly? How can you possibly say there is irreverence in the New Mass when it prescribes more genuflections than the old? There is no blurring of lines if the priest acts and speaks like a priest, following the Missal. Note that the line is only blurred by priests who do not speak the actual words or follow the actual rubrics.

I'd say the practical abuses are more related to the worldwide individualist/democratic explosion of the 1960's, fueled by the teachings of absurdists, atheists, and late existentialists like Sartre, Russell, et. al., finally breaking out and affecting everything. Even the TLM would've been affected by the 70's - I firmly believe that. It seems more were lost because of their arrogance in refusing to accept Humanae Vitae (cuz it was the 60's and "we're better than that"), than because of the bad Mass celebrations.

You are criticizing the New Mass for destroying the faith in the same way that atheists criticize Christians for believing in a Cosmic Sky Wizard Sadist. What you mean by 'New Mass' and what pro-NO trads mean by the 'New Mass' is about the same as the other situation: what the atheists mean by 'God' and what we mean by 'God' are different. There can be no common ground of argument, because atheists attack the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Pink Teapot, or any number of things. It may not be the Mass itself, but the Pink Teapots and Flying Unicorns that rad-trads perceive, and hate.

Quote:Fact 1) The TLM was a codified form of a rite that had long prevailed and had developed organically

Yes, it developed organically... from the forms which were composed by John Chrysostom and Basil of Caesarea. They took individual traditions from many dioceses, coalescing them in their Divine Liturgy(ies). Apart from the Roman Canon, almost the whole "Mass of Ages" is lifted from the Byzantine Rite, pre-Gregory the Great. He was the one who removed the long Litany of Peace, instating the Kyrie we know. I believe the Divine Liturgies of Basil/Chrysostom/James are much more beautiful than the Roman Rite of any era, because the Latin Mass was gradually changed by individual popes through the centuries, always with some personal idea of  "what would be best for the Mass." The East never did this to the DL: they left it alone for the most part, which is why I am beginning to respect it more and more. None of this Western legalism that must tweak every sentence every decade. Same with the Office since the 1500's. Always a shortening. Always a coalescing. Always a brief....ening...  :LOL:

Quote:Fact 2) The NO is bodge job of random bits and pieces from everywhere
Fact 4) The TLM was designed to protect the mass from heresy and heterodoxy by tightening up the rubrics
Fact 5) The NO does the exact opposite despite the wide spread heresy and heterodoxy of our world
Fact 6)The TLM was designed to preserve the Catholic truth, the NO on the other hand was the instrument of a heterodox council infected by the spirit of liberalism and modernism
Fact 7) The NO is indisputably similar to Cranmers and Luthers mass's
Fact 8 ) The NO has within the last 40 years led to abuses that were unheard of in Church history.

2 ) Yes.

4-5 ) How, exactly?

6 ) Proof, please!

7 ) How are they similar? Cranmer's 'service' of the Eucharist has rubrics which refer to their communion as "bread" before the Institution Narrative, and "bread" after the consecration. The Novus Ordo insists that it remains a sacrifice, and calls it "bread" before the consecration, and "The Host" after the consecration. There is almost no similarity in the actual theology and intention...

8 ) Unheard of? How about the Goliards and other abusive, disobedient heretics through the ages? This is man's sinfulness, not some special New-Mass related thing, nor even a specifically 1960's-thing!

Quote:As for why the view of the NO being intrinsically sinful and flawed prevails, perhaps because its true!  :)

What the Apostles loose is loosed; what they bind is bound. How hard is this to understand? It is a valid Mass, as much as I dislike its deconstructionism and minimalism.

Quote:It is entirely irrelevant what consolation you do or don't get feel you get from the NO, feelings are irrelevant and frankly your statement smacks of modernism,

ROFL. Traditionalists constantly refer to the heavenly "atmosphere" at the TLM, the incense, the music, etc., as appealing to their emotions/feelings. This is either a strawman or an hypocrisy. Since I don't want to just assume you're a hypocrite, it is more likely to say you are making up an argument to justify your position.
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Messages In This Thread
My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 10:45 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Protrident - 01-25-2012, 10:49 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Tim - 01-25-2012, 10:51 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by SaintAndrew - 01-25-2012, 10:59 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by SimplyCatholic - 01-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by NOtard - 01-25-2012, 12:30 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 12:51 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 12:54 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by SaintAndrew - 01-25-2012, 01:00 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by JoniCath - 01-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by newyorkcatholic - 01-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by CaptCrunch73 - 01-25-2012, 01:51 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 02:17 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 02:25 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by alicewyf - 01-25-2012, 03:23 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by The Curt Jester - 01-25-2012, 03:31 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by JayneK - 01-25-2012, 03:33 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by SimplyCatholic - 01-25-2012, 05:59 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by City Smurf - 01-25-2012, 06:13 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 07:54 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 07:56 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-25-2012, 08:25 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Revixit - 01-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Justin - 01-25-2012, 09:15 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Revixit - 01-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-25-2012, 09:43 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 09:45 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 09:47 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Tapatio - 01-25-2012, 09:49 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-25-2012, 09:50 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 09:51 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Tapatio - 01-25-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Justin - 01-25-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-25-2012, 10:29 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-25-2012, 11:32 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-26-2012, 12:19 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Whitey - 01-26-2012, 12:26 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 12:38 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Tapatio - 01-26-2012, 03:00 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 03:22 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 09:35 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Laetare - 01-26-2012, 01:50 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 03:05 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by NOtard - 01-26-2012, 03:12 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 03:17 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 03:22 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 03:39 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Laetare - 01-26-2012, 04:37 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-26-2012, 06:56 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 07:59 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 08:00 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by JayneK - 01-26-2012, 08:29 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 08:32 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 08:33 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by JayneK - 01-26-2012, 08:35 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 08:39 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Justin - 01-26-2012, 09:41 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 09:50 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 10:20 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 10:26 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-26-2012, 10:42 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Dewi - 01-26-2012, 10:55 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 11:00 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by JayneK - 01-26-2012, 11:06 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Petertherock - 01-26-2012, 11:12 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:19 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 11:22 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:25 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:28 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 11:32 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:35 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:39 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-26-2012, 11:41 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:41 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 11:42 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:44 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-26-2012, 11:45 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 11:50 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-26-2012, 11:51 PM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-27-2012, 12:10 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-27-2012, 12:11 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-27-2012, 12:14 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-27-2012, 12:22 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Mithrandylan - 01-27-2012, 12:25 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-27-2012, 12:28 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-27-2012, 12:28 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-27-2012, 12:29 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-27-2012, 12:32 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Someone1776 - 01-27-2012, 12:37 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by GottmitunsAlex - 01-27-2012, 12:38 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Justin - 01-27-2012, 06:58 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-27-2012, 07:39 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by newyorkcatholic - 01-27-2012, 10:00 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by TrentCath - 01-27-2012, 10:08 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by newyorkcatholic - 01-27-2012, 10:57 AM
Re: My experience at the NO - by Norbert - 01-27-2012, 03:39 PM



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