Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#10
(05-11-2018, 01:09 PM)Dominicus Wrote: I am aware that beatification is not infallible nor is it the same as canonization. My point was that if the Church says someone is beatified then what authority do I have to challenge that? He may not have displayed heroic virtue, he may have committed grave sins, but many seem to just assume that he is automatically in Hell which is wrong. I'm not saying that anyone has to pray to him or honor him but we should still speak respectfully of him and not prevent others who wish to pray to him. And at the same time we should maintain that whatever personal sanctity he may have had ultimately has nothing to do with the sinful acts he committed. I for one will continue praying for his eternal rest.

Agreed, in part.

If one who did not display heroic virtue, or committed grave sins is put up as an example of virtue or sanctity, then we have every reason to still condemn such things. We don't say, wells Blessed Charles de Foucauld used to sleep around so we can't criticize his sinful life before his conversion.

The problem is that previously every saint or blessed that had such a life, or was a schismatic, or professed heresy, very clearly separated themselves from it before leading a life of heroic virtue. In the case of the modern Popes we don't have that. If John Paul II came out and regretted Assisi for the scandal it caused, I would have fewer questions on his sanctity.

The problem is separating "personal sanctity" from the office the person held. In the case of a priest, bishop, cardinal or pope, the man is not separable from the office given. A priest will save himself or be damned as a priest--because of the priestly duties he did or failed to do. A bishop, as a bishop. A cardinal as a cardinal. The pope as a pope. If one of these fails in his duties in his office in a sinful way, he fails in his sanctity.

That said, yes, we do need to be careful not to pretend that the only other option is Hell, or that we can be disrespectful to the office or condemn the good that the did do. I pray these men are in heaven.

The infallibility of canonization was never defined, and was never universally accepted by all theologians. It would be temerity to reject this if there were not serious reasons to doubt, but I think we have sufficiently established that there are at least reasons to doubt, even if one wishes to hold the older view of infallibility.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by MagisterMusicae - 05-12-2018, 01:59 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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