Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#49
(05-29-2018, 11:09 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-29-2018, 10:25 PM)Paul Wrote:
(05-29-2018, 10:03 PM)pabbie Wrote: But regarding canonizations, the quotes I provided in my last post, along with every other reference I have ever read on the subject, all say the same thing - canonizations are infallible, no exceptions. These quotes fall under the everyday teaching of the Church (the ordinary magisterium), which is itself infallible by definition. If Pope Francis is a true Vicar of Christ, then his upcoming canonization cannot be questioned.

But what does canonisation mean? Is the Church only saying this person is in heaven, or is the Church saying the things this person did during his life are worthy of emulation, and if you do them, you will go to heaven? I'd say the Church is only guaranteeing the first, particularly with the changes to the process such that any whiff of unorthodoxy put an end to the process. Saying Paul VI is in heaven doesn't mean we have to think that his promulgation of the new Mass was good.

But, in fact, this is the whole point of the discussion.

The theologians have not universally and certainly defined the object of infallibility. 

Historically this definition seems to include the establishment of heroic virtue and worth of emulation at least in the process, which is why those who did not show this, or upon whom any suspicion of error could even be though, were quickly dismissed from ever being considered.

Thus there are two possible reactions in the face of these modern canonization which try our Faith.

1. Reduce the object of infallibility to "they're in heaven".

2. Reduce confidence in the infallibility of the modified process as it stands.

That's the matter for discussion, and the very fact that we have to even discuss this is not our fault, but that of the Popes who have made a laughing stock of the process and proposed candidates which everyone hopes made it to heaven, but who committed objective grave public sins and never publicly repented.

John Paul II is a perfect example. The meeting at Assisi was an objective and grave sin against the First Commandment. It was one of several things which pushed Archbishop Lefebvre to consider consecrating bishops, it was so scandalous. Yet never did the Pope directly or indirectly publicly repent of this objective sin. It is quite hard to claim that it was not also subjectively imputable, since this is the Vicar of Christ we are talking about, who has the grave duty of promoting the Catholic Faith and protecting the faithful from Error.

I am no judge of the internal forum and hope that the Pope confessed and repented of this to the extent he understood its grave evil, but the very lack of a public abjuration of some kind makes his beatification and canonization scandalous.

If I had organized various Christian sects, Jews, Muslims and pagans together to pray for peace in 1930, I would rightly have been condemned and even perhaps excommunicated. Today this is seen as a supreme virtue, and yet Pius XI wrote in 1928 :

Quote:But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.

This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise? For here there is question of defending revealed truth.

... Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you." 

...Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."

Was he wrong?

If not, then how can we say that the canonization of John Paul II (whatever we want to consider to be the object of infallibility in a canonization, if there be one), is not a grave scandal perpetuated on the Church?
 
I certainly hear the complaints you mention - they are concerning. That is why many people come to believe the sedevacantist position - they believe that no true pope can possibly do such things.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by pabbie - 05-30-2018, 01:18 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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