Schism and End Times Scenario
#12
(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Right now the Church and the Anti-Church are uncomfortably coexisting within the same institutional space. I think a real schism is in fact inevitable. Prophecy seems to point in that direction. Church and Anti-Church will soon formally separate, Anti-Church will be seen by the vast majority as the Catholic Church, and the majority of prelates will hold fast to Anti-Church, and thereby separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church will continue to exist only as a small and heavily persecuted remnant.

So right off the bat we're playing fast and loose with terms. This is dangerous, and could lead to all kinds of errors, if we're not careful.

There is one Church. It is the Church established with Jesus Christ. It has certain qualities, but is essentially a society, which means it is visible and can be detected. One of the major error Luther (and then other Protestants after him) made was to identify the Church as an invisible collection of "true believers".

To speak of a Church and Anti-Church as forces within the Church (properly speaking), is fine. There are certainly forces working for the destruction of the Bride of Christ.

To suggest that what appears to be the Catholic Church is not the Church is impossible and contrary to the very constitution of said Church. It is not possible, for instance, that some Pope lead a false Church which appears to be the Catholic Church while the real Church exists only as a loose confederation of "true believers" here or there, unless the "Gates of Hell" have prevailed over the Church.

In short, this would be the destruction of the Church, and thus the end of the world itself.

Now, could a counterfeit "church" be set up? Most assuredly. It has lots of times already.

Could such a "church" pull away and deceive many of the faithful? Again, yes, because it's happened many times.

The problem in such speculation is that whatever scenario one comes up with it still must conform to what the Church teaches about Herself.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Remember the description of the great harlot in Apocalypse 17 and 18? It certainly seems to be referring to Rome, an apostate Rome, or more precisely a diabolical spiritual power seated in Rome. This could well be this Anti-Church foretold in prophesy. Particular interesting is the urging of God for "his people" to come out of her. Of Course this presupposes that his people, Catholics, are "in" her. This could well refer to the institutional organization taken over by the Anti-Church.

The literal meaning of the Apocalypse is most likely in the past. It is most likely a vision of John which is highly metaphorical and which firstly refers to the trials of the early Church, but also has eschatological meaning as well. It's one of the only books where Scripture scholars suggest that perhaps there are multiple literal senses, where one thing stands for two and not just by metaphor.

As a reference to Rome in the sense you suggest, however, it mostly follows a Protestant notion of the Catholic Church itself as this "Harlot of Babylon".

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: So if all of that is in fact the case, then it is in fact the "pope" and the prelates who follow him who will be the schismatics, it is they who will separate themselves definitively from the Catholic Church. It is they who will preside over the counterfeit church of Satan, wherein the Anti-Christ will take his seat.

Yeah, here's wear the first looseness in term goes off the rails. Schism is defined by lack of union with the Pope and the rest of the members of the Catholic Church. A Pope cannot be a schismatic, by definition.

Now, could a Pope lose his office by formal heresy? It seems so at least according to some theologians. If we follow one of those theories and that the Pope's loss of office would be recognized by a very large swath of the bishops or cardinals in imperfect council by recognizing his heresy, then it is perfectly possible that said "Pope" through force retain control over the Vatican itself and to many still appear the Pope and have some bishops supporting him. But there would at least be a clear distinction between the faithful bishops, clergy and faithful and the unfaithful former "Pope" and his followers. People could still identify the Church by her marks, even if there seemed to some to be a counter-"church". That's a possible scenario, but certainly more complex that what is proposed here.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: "...so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Most Fathers and theologians who comment on this would have this be a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, not the Church. It would be odd for St Paul to speak of a "temple" when Christians did not call their meeting places "temples". The Jewish Christians, because of "The Temple" and the Greeks and Latin because they had pagan temples, and there could be confusion. It is a modern analogy that would have been foreign to the people of the St Paul's time.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Once this schism comes into full effect, and Anti-Church has the whole institutional apparatus in its grasp, then is likely when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will be suppressed, and a new and wholly invalid "liturgy" will takes its place.

"And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11)

1, 290 days is 3 and a half years, the reign of Anti-Christ.

Daniel is like St John's Apocalypse. It is firstly about past events and only secondarily about possible future ones.

Seems like it is hard to suggest Pope Francis is this figure, though, if he has already reigned for more than twice this.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: I really do believe we are living in the End times, the time just before the coming of Anti-Christ. Everything is playing out in accord with prophesy, both biblical and as revealed by many Marian apparitions.

We have been since Christ Himself. St Pius X even suggested that perhaps the Anti-Christ might already be in the world in 1903. The Thessalonians thought it was the end long ago. We know neither the day, nor the hour, and speculating does very little good, since no matter what is going on, whether the end is 1,000 years away or 1,000 seconds away, it should not change how we live our Faith one iota. We need to get in and stay in the State of Grace and live a life where Christ is all in all.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: I think we really need to consider this stuff and get a feel for where we may be headed....thoughts?

Why?

How will speculating and worrying about such things help us to be better Catholics and make it easier to save our souls?

If there is some way, then yes, consider said things. If not, then live your Catholic life, stay out of sin, love your Heavenly Mother, pray, sacrifice, and don't worry.
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Messages In This Thread
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 02:34 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Some Guy - 09-12-2019, 03:48 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 04:20 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-12-2019, 09:15 PM
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 09:40 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by tornpage - 09-26-2019, 11:46 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by MagisterMusicae - 09-12-2019, 09:53 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 10:14 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 10:28 PM
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 10:44 PM
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-12-2019, 11:01 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-13-2019, 07:33 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-13-2019, 03:36 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-13-2019, 08:13 AM
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-13-2019, 04:20 PM
Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-13-2019, 09:31 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-14-2019, 09:24 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-13-2019, 10:54 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-13-2019, 11:03 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Florus - 09-13-2019, 11:32 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-13-2019, 11:37 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Markie Boy - 09-14-2019, 07:36 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-14-2019, 09:38 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-14-2019, 10:06 AM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-22-2019, 01:54 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by FultonFan - 09-23-2019, 08:41 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by jovan66102 - 09-23-2019, 09:08 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by Paul - 09-29-2019, 07:51 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by jovan66102 - 09-29-2019, 09:04 PM
RE: Schism and End Times Scenario - by 1Faith - 09-29-2019, 02:32 PM



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