Salvation through confusion?
(10-03-2019, 01:12 PM)SeekSalvation Wrote:
(10-02-2019, 08:35 AM)Paul Wrote:
(10-02-2019, 06:23 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Can people be saved without being baptized - Yes, the thief on the cross was.

That was before the New Covenant, which hadn't started yet. Baptism wasn't required.

Actually Christ had already stated baptism was required for salvation prior to being crucified. To better understand why the thief on the cross was saved just look to St Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica Third Part Question 66 which defines Form and Matter for Baptism requirements:

   (Question: 66 Article 5) I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
   (Question 66 Articles 3,4)    Water
   (Question 66 Articles 12)     Desire
   (Question 66 Articles 11,12) Blood

The thief received Baptism because he 'desired' to be baptized, or through his 'blood'. Martyrs who die in the belief of and name of Christ without formal water baptism fit this 'blood' Matter requirement.

"Baptism of Blood" and "Baptism of Desire" are clearly not Sacramental Baptism. 

In article 11 of that question you cite, St Thomas writes : "each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism." He means that these other "baptisms" are called Baptism by analogy. What is analogous does not share to the same degree in the prime analog, and thus is lesser than it. That analogy is often by the effects, as it is with these "baptism". Similarly we speak of a "marriage of the minds" when two people have a union of thought on a project or idea. It does not produce a real "marriage" but produces an intimate union of principles and thoughts. So these "baptisms" aside from Sacramental Baptism are only "baptism" in as much as when they occur, they produce some of the effects, without being a Sacrament themselsves.

They are substitutes which produce some of the effects including the most important which is Sanctifying Grace in the soul, making it capable of salvation, so in short, "desire" and "blood" are not "matter" for the Sacrament of Baptism.

Further, St Dismas did not die as a martyr, nor did he ever express a desire for Baptism. He expressed contrition for sins, just like every other during Our Lord's ministry who came to him to be healed. Frequent were those words "Your sins are forgiven" not "Be healed."

St Cyprian, as St Thomas mentions in article 11 argues from St Dismas that there are other means to be saved aside from Sacramental Baptism, but that only Our Lord can grant this, and so he promotes the notion of Baptism of Blood and of Desire, but he also, is very clear that these are not the Sacrament of Baptism, but substitutes in particular cases.

The only command to Baptize in the Gospels is given to the Apostles and Disciples, not promulgated to all. In order for a law to be binding it must be sufficiently known. St Dismas would not have been party to that expression of necessity.

Now, I'm no supporter of Fr Feeney, and don't want this thread to devolve into a pro- or anti-Feeney battle, but I will say that one of the things that the pro-Feeney crowd has on their side is that many of those on the others like to play fast and loose with the theology. We really have to get the theological ducks in a row when we're talking about such subjects, because short terse arguments which seems to be erudite due to some passing references to a theologian often end up causing confusion or making the Catholic doctrine seem objectionable when it is not.

Messages In This Thread
Salvation through confusion? - by LionHippo - 10-01-2019, 10:46 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by Markie Boy - 10-02-2019, 06:23 AM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by Paul - 10-02-2019, 08:35 AM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by Paul - 10-03-2019, 02:27 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by MagisterMusicae - 10-03-2019, 03:33 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by Paul - 10-03-2019, 07:44 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by MaryTN - 10-02-2019, 02:21 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by 1Faith - 10-02-2019, 04:57 PM
RE: Salvation through confusion? - by Augustinian - 10-03-2019, 08:32 PM

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