Authority of Vatican 2
#27
(11-11-2019, 01:37 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 12:57 AM)newenglandsun Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 12:04 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 09:46 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: And I further would point out the hypocrisy of Latins who would assess this current Pope as a heretic and yet simultaneously insist that all other papal decrees are infallible.

It's not hypocrisy, because we don't insist this.

As you may read in many places infallibility is an extremely limited negative charism of the Pope. If he defines something on Faith or Morals as needing to be believed by all because it is a revealed truth, then he can't be wrong. Aside from this, he can be wrong, and even fall into personal heresy. He just cannot bind the Church to profess heresy as truth.

So your whole characterization is wrong, and I'd bet this is because that's what you've been taught by this supposed "catechist".

(11-10-2019, 09:46 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: Vatican I is problematic on the basis that it was never even formally completed. I do not see how it could be held binding any more than Vatican II.

So, just because the last schema on the Church was never discussed or approved, even though all the formalities for the other documents were completed it somehow invalidates the others? How's that?

If I am tasked with completing three essays for a course, and fail to turn in one essay because of some pressing issue, but still earn passing marks, does this call into question the validity of my passing mark?

Totally arbitrary standard to question Vatican I. I would point out to willfully doubt what it teaches as revealed truth is heresy.

But whether it was completed or not according to your judgement doesn't really matter. The Pope made these decrees his own by his approval. What they therefore define as "of Faith" are thus formally defined by the Pope, and so completion of the Council doesn't affect them.

Even Lord Acton died in full communion with the Church. You state that my questioning its authority is arbitrary ignoring the first millennium rules on what makes a council ecumenically binding and then stating arbitrarily that the pope made the decrees infallible by his approval. So really the authority of Vatican I is based on circular reasoning?

I'm guessing you're willing to admit that you were mischaracterizing Latins, since you decided not to respond to that point, which was the main thrust.

I also never said that Papal Infallibility was based on Vatican I.

Just like Nicea it did not create the notion of the Divinity of the Son of God, but affirmed the Truth that always existed against errors, Vatican I affirmed the truth of Papal Infallibility. That one can cite a Magisterial document is useful and should be proof, but the truth of the matter is prior and independent to the definition. The definition merely confirms this for the benefit of those who might doubt.

Acton died in the Church because he never denied Papal Infallibility, unlike Döllinger. He opposed its definition, and then went silent. He continued to attend Mass and remain united to the Church. He was not alone, and even bishops who opposed it before Vatican I fell into line afterward. I should point out that this was not because they denied it's truth, but they thought it dangerous to define as such. That's a fine position to hold, by the way. It was the recently canonized John Henry Newman's view.
I never denied papal infallibility either. I said papal infallibility is derived from the infallibility of the Church. Re-read my first comment on this point. Such also brings the doctrine in alignment with the views of the first millennium.
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Messages In This Thread
Authority of Vatican 2 - by Tolkien1096 - 11-10-2019, 03:00 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-10-2019, 03:33 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by Tolkien1096 - 11-10-2019, 04:14 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by VoxClamantis - 11-10-2019, 04:18 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-10-2019, 06:01 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-10-2019, 06:22 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-10-2019, 07:24 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-10-2019, 07:59 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-10-2019, 07:25 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by yablabo - 11-10-2019, 08:12 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-10-2019, 08:28 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-10-2019, 09:46 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by yablabo - 11-10-2019, 10:46 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-10-2019, 11:02 PM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 12:52 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by yablabo - 11-11-2019, 01:09 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 01:27 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-11-2019, 01:37 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-11-2019, 01:16 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 01:24 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-11-2019, 12:04 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 12:57 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by yablabo - 11-11-2019, 01:04 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-11-2019, 01:37 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 02:09 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-11-2019, 02:33 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 03:25 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by MagisterMusicae - 11-11-2019, 04:44 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by newenglandsun - 11-11-2019, 03:26 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by jovan66102 - 11-11-2019, 04:49 AM
RE: Authority of Vatican 2 - by yablabo - 11-11-2019, 03:50 AM



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