Response: R&T SSPX
#7
(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Is there anything in Vatican II which I would be a heretic for accepting.

No. It is never been the SSPX position, nor that of Lefebvre that there were heresies. Errors, but not heresies.

In 1988 Lefebvre was willing to accept Vatican II as read in the light of the traditional Magisterium in writing, so clearly he thought those errors (since they were not taught as defined) when put up against the traditional teachings would easily be seen to be wrong and thus be corrected in time.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: I've heard it said as embracing 95% of the Council.

This was a single quote in an interview of Bishop Fellay to CNS. He was making an analogy here, that 95% has no issues, but reiterates (though ambiguously) the past teachings or says nothing of doctrinal note. It is a few areas (Collegiality, Religious Liberty, and Ecumenism) which present real problems.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Also, I here this claim that the Council was "pastoral" often. I want that substantiated.

Then read the speeches of John XXIII and Paul VI from the Council.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: I can't expect, and don't for that matter, anyone to watch any other video Lofton has done, but he took that claim to task and presented what I thought was solemn language which sounded that the Council was teaching doctrinally.

Then he is wrong, and clearly is not basing his references off the actual official acts of the Council, but ideas. That he would quote Congar should make us worry about what comes after.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Also, there is the matter of episcopal ordinations being a separate level of the sacrament of Order than the presbyterate. So, how does someone justify using "pastoral" in the light of such claims.

That was an ongoing debate, and even in the Council was not "defined" except in light of Collegiality. There are serious theological issues with the reason the documents give, namely that Jurisdication is not a power given by the Pope to Bishops, but Sacramentally conferred by Episcopal ordination, such that one possess Jurisdiction by ordination. Never has the Church or any theologian ever taught that before 1960.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Could you please provide the documentation which shows the banning of Congar's writtings.

It's on Wikipedia, which while unreliable, has the references.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: 2. Why would it be erroneous, in se, to emphasize the Mass as a meal. It is that, along with a true and real sacrifice. Both realities are present, so what is the issue with emphasizing one?

Cf. The Council of Trent on the Mass, which is doctrinal.

(02-25-2021, 04:04 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: For instance, Christ himself instituted the Eucharist in the context of the Paschal meal. Now, that meal was itself sacrificial, Sacred Scripture is very clear about that. But it is also a meal.

When Christ instituted the Pasch of the new covenant it was during the celebration of the old Pasch. It is also both those realities, sacrifice and meal. What is the actual error of emphasizing one element over the other, provided that both are still maintained?

The Last Supper was a meal. The Mass is not the Last Supper re-presented. It is the Cross re-presented. The Last Supper was a prefigurement of the Cross.

This also is addressed in Trent, against the Protestants who wished to remove the idea that the Mass is a Sacrifice.

Communion is a meal, but Communion is not the Mass. The only Communion necessary at Mass is that of the Priest.
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Messages In This Thread
Response: R&T SSPX - by Justin Tertius - 02-25-2021, 01:31 AM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by MagisterMusicae - 02-25-2021, 04:02 AM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by Justin Tertius - 02-25-2021, 10:23 AM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by MagisterMusicae - 02-25-2021, 11:39 AM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by Justin Tertius - 02-25-2021, 04:09 PM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by Justin Tertius - 02-25-2021, 04:04 PM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by MagisterMusicae - 02-25-2021, 07:04 PM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by austenbosten - 02-25-2021, 09:08 PM
RE: Response: R&T SSPX - by Justin Tertius - 02-26-2021, 08:36 AM



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