R&R discussion
#1
-From the optional mysteries thread-

Fully understand that, and had held fully to that idea. The issue though im starting to run into is statements like this from Pope Leo "Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live."

It sounds like the pope is the one, not the laity (us) to decide what is in harmony with tradition and not, what are to be accepted and not. Basically, as Leo states, that the pope is to be the guide of the faith for all catholics. Thus the impression that one has to listen to what the pope teaches even if it contradicts tradition. The other hurdle along these lines is getting over the teaching that no one judges the pope.

“…Furthermore, if you do not listen to us [Rome], it remains that you be held by us as our Lord Jesus Christ enjoins us to hold those who refuse to hear the Church of God; especially since the privileges of the Roman Church confirmed in St. Peter by the words of Christ, ordained in the Church itself, observed from of old, proclaimed by the holy universal synods and ever venerated by the whole Church, can by no means be diminished, infringed, or altered, since no effort of man has power to remove a foundation which God has laid, and what God has established stands firm and unshakable….These privileges, then, were bestowed on this holy Church by Christ: they were not bestowed by the Synod but were merely proclaimed and held in veneration by them….it is immediately clear that the judgments of the Apostolic See, than which there is no greater authority, cannot be handled by any other tribunal, nor is it permissible for any to sit in judgement upon its decision…..”

(Pope Nicholas, Preposueramus Quidem, 865 AD, to the Emperor Michael, Epistle 8; Mansi xv. 196)


Thus according to Pope Nicholas, a decree of God's can't be diminished, infringed, or altered. The same though is bestowed on the church, judgments by the Holy See, and likewise the pope, can't be judged.

“The entire Church over the entire world knows that the Chair of Blessed Peter has the right to loose what has been bound by the sentences of any bishop whatsoever, as the See of Peter is entitled to jurisdiction over any Church, while no one is entitled to pass judgement on its decision, for the canons have permitted that appeals should be directed to it from all the world, but no one is permitted to appeal its decision….The Apostolic See has often had the freedom (facultas), without a Synod preceding it, to loose those whom a Synod had unjustly condemned, and also, if necessary, to condemn others without the convocation of a Synod….” (Patrologia Latina 59.66C, 67 B,C)

Reading this, it appears that the early church fathers believed that the pope can loose and bind any bishop, as the pope has jurisdiction over all the church, thus every Catholic.

My problem is this. We hold that the pope cant be judged by any man. We hold that the pope is also the final say on faith and morals. Thus, when we dont like a teaching (and what I mean by this is our opinion is that its counter to tradition and for me there is a long list such as the divorce remarriage, bad to spread the faith and convert others, the Eucharist to all that feel they should get it, a very long etc) we are holding the teachings of past popes and saints above that of the pope. We are in a sense judging the popes actions, and having a previous bishop (pope, saint etc) as grater then the See of Peter. We the laity are judging the actions of the pope, the sayings and teachings of the pope. Yes, it has very very apparent if not outright contradition. However, what I stumble on is, do we have that right as laity? Do we have the right to sit down and jduge the pope's actiosn in faith and morals, when previous popes have stated that the pope can't error here, even when its not ex cathedra? When tradition and many popes state, from the church fathers on, no one can judge the popes actions, no tribunal or even synod is greater then the pope?

We, in a sense, are putting ourselves above the pope by being the judge and jury of his actions and teachings. We decide that the pope is in error and contradicts tradition, and we decide to reject his teachings. Even when its apparent and no explanation given (as is common). My struggle is, isn't this wrong? We hold that we cant judge the pope, and yet we do just that by declaring that such and such a teaching is not in conformity with tradition (judging the teaching against tradition) and thus after jduging it in err, we then choose to reject or ignore it.

I know Paul and Peter went at it in the bible, but my understanding it was a matter of conduct, NOT teaching. Peter was not teaching that the gentiles should be ignored, was just doing that. When Francis teaches that (pick random thing, death penalty or even say the abrahamic declaration stuff) is right, since its a matter of faith and morals, according to pope leo in the previous post... he would be protected from error. Thus my problem. You are absolutely right Paul that God can't change His mind, He is consistent. What ten when we have this contradiction. On the one hand, you have Tradition. On the other, you have Francis. Tradition states that the pope can't err on faith and morals, even when not ex cathedra. It also says we can't judge the pope. Thus, the contradiction. To choose Tradition, you reject the Tradition that teaches the pope can't err on those things. To choose Francis, you reject the Tradition of 1900+ years. Either way, you are rejecting teachings of the Church it appears.

Hence the wrench in my R&R stance. To recognize and then resist (read that more of recognize and ignore) I am passing judgment on the pope and rejecting the teachings that say I can't do judge him (setting myself as the one who knows tradition better then the pope who is supposed to be protected by God Himself in these matters), as well as rejecting the teachings that state the pope can't err in faith and morals. Lottery tickets yes, but not teaching faith and morals. Thus my conundrum and confusion.
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Messages In This Thread
R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-28-2021, 10:48 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 11:21 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-28-2021, 02:43 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 04:20 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 04:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 05:06 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 05:28 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 05:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-28-2021, 04:49 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 10:30 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:33 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 03:36 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 04:26 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:09 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 08:00 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:21 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:37 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 08:01 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:47 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by lukeg03 - 04-29-2021, 01:55 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Justin Tertius - 04-29-2021, 02:00 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 02:04 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:54 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-29-2021, 02:01 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 04:35 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 04:50 PM



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