Contradictions of the modern popes
(08-16-2012, 08:55 AM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote:
(08-16-2012, 04:31 AM)kingofspades Wrote: However: it's the same old sin: "I KNOW BETTER THAN THE POPE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG."

Father, when Catholics all over Europe accused John XXII of heresy for saying that the blessed do not see the Blessed Trinity until after the Last Judgment, but instead that they only see the glorified Jesus, were they all just too ridiculously proud to realize that the pope actually knew better than them?

Careful.  If you answer yes, then it would appear that the Church has been in error on this point for at least 700 years.

Pope John XXII converted on his deathbed, I believe.

His error was far more subtle than many of those we deal with today.

Indeed. The lay person who stood up in the middle of Nestorius' sermon and denounced him as a heretic was supported by the Church.

The Church does not run from facts in the name of virtue any more than she runs from reason in the name of Faith.
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TrentCath, thank you for all this work. 

I think that if I, an untrained middle-aged arthritic laywoman can see contradiction here, I have to wonder how these highly educated theologians who can dance circles around me intellectually and in ways I can't even imagine, don't see it, or, if they do, aren't troubled by it.  The answer seems to be they're very well aware, and their wills are bad, that's all.  What else could I possibly conclude?

It's also painfully obvious to me that many posters here either don't want to see, or really can't see, the difference between compare and contrast, which even a grade school student knows how to do, and refusal to submit to authority.  When criticism isn't allowed, what do we have?  And when the the critic's intentions are assumed to be evil, on a topic as serious as this, it looks a witch-hunt.

All I can say to you, TrentCath, is don't lose what you have, and keep corresponding to those graces.  And don't let any of this go to your head, but I know you already know that. 
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(08-16-2012, 08:48 AM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote: Oh.  Oops.  I see what you mean by "separated out" now.

Yes I've started to create separate threads  :grin:
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(08-16-2012, 09:14 AM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: TrentCath, thank you for all this work. 

I think that if I, an untrained middle-aged arthritic laywoman can see contradiction here, I have to wonder how these highly educated theologians who can dance circles around me intellectually and in ways I can't even imagine, don't see it, or, if they do, aren't troubled by it.  The answer seems to be they're very well aware, and their wills are bad, that's all.  What else could I possibly conclude?

It's also painfully obvious to me that many posters here either don't want to see, or really can't see, the difference between compare and contrast, which even a grade school student knows how to do, and refusal to submit to authority.  When criticism isn't allowed, what do we have?  And when the the critic's intentions are assumed to be evil, on a topic as serious as this, it looks a witch-hunt.

All I can say to you, TrentCath, is don't lose what you have, and keep corresponding to those graces.  And don't let any of this go to your head, but I know you already know that. 

Thanks I will try and I'm sure people on here will keep my ego in check  :LOL:

As for theologians, many are modernists of some type and others are delusional, that is suffering from severe cognitive dissonance, the same applies to many on here I'm afraid.
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(08-16-2012, 04:31 AM)kingofspades Wrote: I want to warn everyone here for the modernist rationalism in our human mind. We can all think we know better than the Pope what Jesus Christ wants with us and the Church, but it's the same old story of human pride in a new disguise! The devil also knows tradition! He can play with all texts, copies and pastes better than you can imagine and plays with our mind day by day. He cannot blind us with liberal rationalism, and so he does the other way around: with traditional rationalism.

However: it's the same old sin: "I KNOW BETTER THAN THE POPE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG."

That there are all kind of small groups telling you that you are right, is just a sign of how the old divider works. In all Church history we see the same pattern. Every time a new cloack, but underneath the same monster. Always leading to justified disobedience, later to heresy and schism, and here we are! It's so with trad groups, in Medjugorje, in left-wing groups. The same pattern, different chasuble.

No no no! Stop the tricks, bow your proud head and stop criticizing and demonising Popes with your rationlism, it's a grave sin against catholic faith and if it becomes persistent, it will place you outside the Catholic Church. It happened before when Abp Lefebvre acted schismatic, and it will happen again if you don't want to listen. It's not too late, but if you don't listen, you will experience your own belief: extra Ecclesiam, nulla salus. No salvation for excommunicated. And when the Holy Spirit will leave you by then, there will be fletus et stridor dentium when you will wake up in a small sect, governed by him who owns all sects outside the One and Holy Catholic Church.

Amen.  Thank you for this, Father.
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(08-15-2012, 09:31 PM)TrentCath Wrote: So by all means Script, Jayne and others show us how actually the popes taught the same thing on ecumenicism and there is no contradiction whatsoever  :P

You do not have enough intellectual honesty even to admit making a mistake about English grammar. How can I talk to you about something important?
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(08-16-2012, 10:11 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-15-2012, 09:31 PM)TrentCath Wrote: So by all means Script, Jayne and others show us how actually the popes taught the same thing on ecumenicism and there is no contradiction whatsoever  :P

You do not have enough intellectual honesty even to admit making a mistake about English grammar. How can I talk to you about something important?

If its not one excuse its another  :eyeroll: As I said Jayne don't even try acting shocked next time anyone on here accuses you of being in bad faith, obstinate or delusional, there are no other words to describe someone who does what you do

'Waaaaaaa I don't understand why you don't like Humanae Vitae...'

'Waaaa I don't like the way your organised the thread...'

'Waaaa your arguments about english grammar are wrong'

'Waa you're not intellectually honest'

Newsflash all you have done is whine, whinge, insult people, make absurd deductions, make absurd demands and then repeat all that over and over and over again. Frankly its clear to me that what you are doing can't be free from some sort of sin, not because you disagree with me, not because you don't like the way I do things but because of the way you do so consisting of endless absurd requests, demands, insults, attempts to laugh things away and constant bad faith. And you wonder why Stubborn, me and others can't take you seriously when you argue the modern popes and the new mass are fine and great?  :eyeroll:

By all means don't have a conversation with me, by all means have a conversation with other people and explain to them why all the evidence I've dug up, which I expect and hope others will use, is wrong.
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(08-15-2012, 10:20 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I'm not defending any of the post-VII popes here, but I think one should remember that this trad method of stacking short, isolated quotations against one another has its limits. Many on this forum simply assume that the most "hardline" statements made by a pope or theologian on any given matter must be taken as definitive and more moderate statements made by the same pope or theologian must be ignored, which seems problematic to me. For example, one can go back to the Fathers and find many positive statements about pagan culture mixed in with the more negative ones. Of course, I suppose most here would simply say that the Fathers were nothing more than superstitious fools unfortunate enough to be born before the glorious birth of real Catholicism in the post-Tridentine era, but there you go.


Don't even try it, many of these quotations contain most or all of the relevant documents, it is patently absurd to pretend that context will change:

a) praising other religions
b) asking St John the baptist to defend Islam
c) praising the leaders of false religions and calling them 'your holiness'
d) praising jews for converting others to judaism and lasting so long
e) claiming there might be no one in hell
f) claiming that all men are redeemed and forever united to Christ
g) endorsing and lengthily praising the declarations of the rights of man
h) implying the One Church of Christ doesnt exist
i) explicitly stating that schismatics and heretics both as communities and individuals are all somehow related to the church of christ
j) ditto the above but instead stating that they never lost some sort of communion with the church of christ
k) the same as above but claiming they are members of the church of christ
l) Claiming the old convenant was never revoked
j) claiming jews are our 'older brothers'

And so on and so forth. These quotes are not out of context often I have pasted the entire statement, if you believe otherwise go and look it up!

Those people who believe the popes haven't contradicted anything always come up with the same argument 'in context... in context' well by all means prove your claims or hold your peace!  >:(

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It is moreover absurd and untrue to claim these are 'short' quotations, they are anything but and if they are why don't you check the original documents? They are almost all online! Of course if you did, you wouldn't be able to prove your claims  :eyeroll:
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It is quite obvious Jayne that these words of Pope Leo X apply to you:

Quote: Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics "whose last defense," as Jerome says, "is to start spewing out a serpent's venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished."
EXSURGE DOMINE
Condemning The Errors Of Martin Luther
Pope Leo X


Instead of dealing with the arguments logically, as for example Saint Seb has done (though I disagree with his conclusions) or even as Ray did elsewhere (though again I disagree) you simply spew venom, insults, excuses and complaints.
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