John Paul 2 a saint???
(09-12-2012, 03:13 PM)Guardian Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 03:02 PM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote: I don't think that calling everyone who doesn't criticize the pope a modernist is helpful.  Nor is it information.  Nor is it valuable.

Fixed it for you.

While I agree with you, I believe its a two way street.  Frankly, I'm getting very very sick of being labeled.  Words are important, but name calling isn't.  All the labeling around here is just another way of picking sides and it flat out stinks of pride. 
Reeks.
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(09-12-2012, 03:08 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 02:37 PM)Hanno Wrote: Not to be impudent, only curious.  What is the process for a forum member to post as a member of the clergy?

I don't agree with much of what Father has posted on this thread (ggreg, as always, is spot on), but at the same time it makes me uncomfortable to read some of these exchanges because obviously a priest in good standing ought to be accorded some deference and respect.  I don't know.  It's awkward.

It also illustrates the difference between the "diocesan TLM" scene and traditional Catholicism, IMHO.  It was bound to get ugly.

I go mostly to the diocesan TLMs, well more precisely the Latin Mass Society Masses, which predate the MP, because the UK had a special indult.  I go there because the SSPX masses are too far to get to every week.

I regularly criticise the SSPX when I think the situation warrants it.  That's the advantage of being Kung Fu, I have no vested interest to be blinkered to reality and I can call it as I see it.  SSPXers get booted out if they speak too loudly against the leadership and EF's intestinal fortitude is proportional to their Bishop's fondness to the TLM and good graces.  Trads of all persusions should see this from the perspective of the others.  I don't imagine they will this side of the chastisement though.

This is the internet.  I'll never meet most of you, nor you me.  Don't take it so fucking seriously and if it get's too much for you withdraw.  It's debate, this is how we learn stuff.  I'm just some turd in a shed.  Why do you REALLY care?

People are far too emotional and sensitive nowadays.  God knows how we won two world wars.

Greg, I attend a diocesan TLM, too.  It's riddled with problems but it's the best thing I've got within a reasonable distance.  I try my best to give the diocesan TLM priests the benefit of the doubt, but almost every other week it's a Latin Mass with a Novus Ordo sermon.  I grin and bear it.

Maybe I'm being oversensitive, and maybe your scorched-earth debating tactics are the best way to go.  They  sure are great to read, I'll give you that.  I just think the respect for the office of priest is important, because ultimately it goes to our participation in the hierarchical Church.  I'm merely lamenting how effed up things have gotten in the last forty years,as I guess we all are.  Carry on.
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(09-12-2012, 03:13 PM)Guardian Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 03:02 PM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote: I don't think that calling everyone who doesn't criticize the pope a modernist is helpful.  Nor is it information.  Nor is it valuable.

Fixed it for you.

This is a bit of a straw man argument, don't you think?  I haven't seen anyone here repeatedly calling everyone a Modernist who simply refrains from criticizing the pope.

Your fix reminds me of a Novus Ordo collect.
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My point was not that one becomes a priest to get paid...but that their job is to worship God and study God...I wouldve done that if I had come from a loving home. BUT there are agreat many sanctimonius...self absorbed..cowerdly priests...who wont confront modernism but run around accusing. Faithfull laity of schism because they wont kiss modernisms butt. Rereading my post Iwas impudent and I apologise...but I stand by the fact about the problems in the general character of NO priest hood. Gerard demand I respect modernist priests ...sorry no can do. Read my sig lines about anger. Modernist priests shoild be spewed out. JP2 was the apex of modernist priests. This priest..in fe..has forgotten us folk who suffer in the wilderness while he demands we thank them for in rome for their wonderfullness. Ive met many priests and one in five is worth more then a glass of used beer. Not hate juat a fact.
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True a godly priests understand the frustration and anger of the faitfull laity. They dont scold them for complaining.
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(09-12-2012, 04:02 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: True a godly priests understand the frustration and anger of the faitfull laity. They dont scold them for complaining.

Yes I do understand that. And I also have no problem when people here discuss frankly things with me. I have the skin of an elephant, so don't think I won't sleep because people here calling me out.  :LOL:

The question whether a priest should join an internet forum is not a B/W case. As long as it has a certain purpose, it can be OK, also making statemens like I do.

To be open about it: I want to know the world of the tradtiional(ist) Catholics well, because the day I started with celebrating the EF Mass, having a SSPX Chapel not too far away, I knew I should know everything about how people think, in SSPX and other groups, we also have a SV group 'Dogmatic Union' about 25 miles away from here. I learn a lot here and I like a bit of discussion 'in the heat of the fight.' Because that is real life in our times, fight with lions! So it serves my purpose to understand the world I will meet when giving pastoral care to catholics coming from everywhere in the diocesan TLM I celebrate.

However, reading and starting posting a bit, I feel that :

a) the group of people attacking the Church I love and the Saints I celebrate, is nasty and aggressively operating. Like in this topic. How on earth can traditional Catholics practice Pope-bashing in a way the 'we are church' groups even don't dare? Make me mad doing so, and I will fight for the saintety of the Pope! BXVI and JPII !!! GRRR don't attack the Pope, or you will find me on your way!  :grin: That's an appropriate attitude for a priest or?

b) the group of members here who wants normal obedience to magistery and the Pope, is also present, but how can I remain silent when they are attacked as if they are all modernists? The obedient catholics here need (imho) the support by a traditional priest on the forum, to let them know: you are not an idiot when you remain loyal to the Pope! Supporting balanced catholicism is an appropriate attitude for a priest or?

Like that?
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So you hold critisizing the actions of a particular pope to be disloyality to the papacy? This is what is wrong. Icrespect the office of the us presidency...but obama can drop dead. Further I am glad you responded..and I will lay heavy into peoplevto draw them out to get them to reveal where they are coming from ( ask cooler king) as far as the comment about getting paid to stusy god..i admit that is just jelousy...I love apologetics...learning and teaching the faith and serving and participating in the liturgy. But because Im a working stiff with a large family I get only one regular day a week ...so it rubs me wrong when prieats play hilier then thou. Its easy to be a holy priest (granted once you are one ) but the laity dont have titles or collers or habits to hide behind. We have steuggle against evils and temptations that barely cross the AVERAGE priests path. And a POPE has no excuse...he has all the pwer in the world...if he would just have the salt to engage it. I am Loyal to the Pope...but its not ROME luv it or leave it. Even the "glorius " vat 2 grants the laity the right to critique the clergy.
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Ps my spellings awful when ipost with my phonw
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(09-12-2012, 05:18 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: So you hold critisizing the actions of a particular pope to be disloyality to the papacy? This is what is wrong. Icrespect the office of the us presidency...but obama can drop dead. Further I am glad you responded..and I will lay heavy into peoplevto draw them out to get them to reveal where they are coming from ( ask cooler king) as far as the comment about getting paid to stusy god..i admit that is just jelousy...I love apologetics...learning and teaching the faith and serving and participating in the liturgy. But because Im a working stiff with a large family I get only one regular day a week ...so it rubs me wrong when prieats play hilier then thou. Its easy to be a holy priest (granted once you are one ) but the laity dont have titles or collers or habits to hide behind. We have steuggle against evils and temptations that barely cross the AVERAGE priests path. And a POPE has no excuse...he has all the pwer in the world...if he would just have the salt to engage it. I am Loyal to the Pope...but its not ROME luv it or leave it. Even the "glorius " vat 2 grants the laity the right to critique the clergy.

You should try to get a better smartphone LOL


No, criticizing actions is not disloyalty per se.
Criticizing a beatification isn't a sin as such, if only you finally accept it as a subject of faith.
Even when we strongly disagree with teachings or decisions, even those ex cathedra, it's not a sin as such, until the moment we don't want to bow our head anymore.
And it's a grave sin when we are attacking Popes, calling them out for 'heretic' or 'modernist' and try to convince others not to obey, not to believe what they teach.

The latter happened here in this topic and I cannot remain silent about that.

So. Everyone is allowed to say: "I don't like JPII kissing a Koran", "I would never do so", "I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so", even: "I am not a fan of his style", or even: "I don't want to read any of his sermons", or even more dangerous "I ask myself whether it was the best thing to do when John Paul sanctified ...." BUT BUT BUT we are passing a critical line when we say:  "And so"... "He is not in heaven" or even worse "He cannot be in heaven". First because we are not God nor His Son who has the keys for judging, but also because those statements are stating that you don't accept the infallible decision of the actual Pope, which is a sinful act of disobedience and a grave sin against Catholic Faith. And if - like some here do - the following statement is that Pope Benedict is to be condemned because of beatifying John Paul II (and meanwhile summing up all the other so called 'heresies') the loyalty line is definitely crossed...

Got my point? Critizing isn't the biggest problem, although we need to be careful not to be imprudent! Drawing final conclusions and making an act of the will not to accept, is lethal.
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(09-12-2012, 05:40 PM)kingofspades Wrote: And it's a grave sin when we are attacking Popes, calling them out for 'heretic' or 'modernist'

Because, let me guess, popes can't be heretics?

Tell me, Father, are you a fan of the Ignatian method of believing the white wall to be black just because the hierarchical Church so declares it?
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