John Paul 2 a saint???
(09-12-2012, 11:04 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 10:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but the very term "newchurch" or "(post)conciliar church" exists as a way for trads to differentiate between the Catholic Church and the festering cancer of the novus ordo.  Whether or not the first letter is capitalized is more or less immaterial, I think.  We capitalize the names of other churches that aren't Catholic. 

IMO, the "post-conciliar" in "post-conciliar Church" is just an adjective and fine in itself, but it's often used to mean capital P, capital C "Post-Conciliar Church," as if the Church before and after that unfortunate Council are two different things, KWIM? Statements like "anything from the post-conciliar Church is not to be trusted" is material heresy, plain and simple. Changing that to "I don't trust a lot of what comes from our hierarchs in the post-conciliar era" or something makes more sense, isn't as scandalous, doesn't go against the Creed, etc. People are just sloppy with language around here quite a bit and it bugs me.

"Newchurch", IMO, is a term that can only logically be used by sedevacantists.

This.

It really doesn't make sense to profess that you're a Catholic on the one hand, but then profess to be in communion with someone who is a Pope of a New Church.

Simply put: the most reasonable position for us to take is that the Church currently headed by the Holy See has remained the same in substance. Her traditional doctrines are still taught official "in the books" (just look for yourself and read them, they're still there). And what has changed are the accidentals: the way we go about doing things, which can be subject to prudential error (causing scandal, anger, confusion, misinterpretation etc). All the while we can also admit that the decisions of the hierarchy have indeed obscured the contents of the faith, but, they have never officially changed it, nor could they.
Reply
A good treatment on the topic of the term "Conciliar Church":

http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop...Church.pdf
Reply
(09-13-2012, 03:27 AM)romanaround Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 11:04 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 10:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but the very term "newchurch" or "(post)conciliar church" exists as a way for trads to differentiate between the Catholic Church and the festering cancer of the novus ordo.  Whether or not the first letter is capitalized is more or less immaterial, I think.  We capitalize the names of other churches that aren't Catholic. 

IMO, the "post-conciliar" in "post-conciliar Church" is just an adjective and fine in itself, but it's often used to mean capital P, capital C "Post-Conciliar Church," as if the Church before and after that unfortunate Council are two different things, KWIM? Statements like "anything from the post-conciliar Church is not to be trusted" is material heresy, plain and simple. Changing that to "I don't trust a lot of what comes from our hierarchs in the post-conciliar era" or something makes more sense, isn't as scandalous, doesn't go against the Creed, etc. People are just sloppy with language around here quite a bit and it bugs me.

"Newchurch", IMO, is a term that can only logically be used by sedevacantists.

This.

It really doesn't make sense to profess that you're a Catholic on the one hand, but then profess to be in communion with someone who is a Pope of a New Church.

Simply put: the most reasonable position for us to take is that the Church currently headed by the Holy See has remained the same in substance. Her traditional doctrines are still taught official "in the books" (just look for yourself and read them, they're still there). And what has changed are the accidentals: the way we go about doing things, which can be subject to prudential error (causing scandal, anger, confusion, misinterpretation etc). All the while we can also admit that the decisions of the hierarchy have indeed obscured the contents of the faith, but, they have never officially changed it, nor could they.

And to educate ourselves as to antecedents. There are antecedents to VII teaching, and they're not all found amongst the "new theologians". Also strategically speaking, if the Pope is the one to make things better, it stands to reason to adopt a mode that fits his mode of thinking, without compromising on the essentials of the message. Who here actually evangelizes and has worked on adapting messages to the listener? There's much preaching to the choir and listening to ourselves speaking. I had a friend of my wife over last night for dinner. She is away from the Church, living with her boyfriend, and probably doing a few others sin. Guess what, we didn't discuss EENS, but she left knowing she is not in a good position.
Reply
(09-13-2012, 09:39 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(09-13-2012, 03:27 AM)romanaround Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 11:04 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-12-2012, 10:19 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but the very term "newchurch" or "(post)conciliar church" exists as a way for trads to differentiate between the Catholic Church and the festering cancer of the novus ordo.  Whether or not the first letter is capitalized is more or less immaterial, I think.  We capitalize the names of other churches that aren't Catholic. 

IMO, the "post-conciliar" in "post-conciliar Church" is just an adjective and fine in itself, but it's often used to mean capital P, capital C "Post-Conciliar Church," as if the Church before and after that unfortunate Council are two different things, KWIM? Statements like "anything from the post-conciliar Church is not to be trusted" is material heresy, plain and simple. Changing that to "I don't trust a lot of what comes from our hierarchs in the post-conciliar era" or something makes more sense, isn't as scandalous, doesn't go against the Creed, etc. People are just sloppy with language around here quite a bit and it bugs me.

"Newchurch", IMO, is a term that can only logically be used by sedevacantists.

This.

It really doesn't make sense to profess that you're a Catholic on the one hand, but then profess to be in communion with someone who is a Pope of a New Church.

Simply put: the most reasonable position for us to take is that the Church currently headed by the Holy See has remained the same in substance. Her traditional doctrines are still taught official "in the books" (just look for yourself and read them, they're still there). And what has changed are the accidentals: the way we go about doing things, which can be subject to prudential error (causing scandal, anger, confusion, misinterpretation etc). All the while we can also admit that the decisions of the hierarchy have indeed obscured the contents of the faith, but, they have never officially changed it, nor could they.

And to educate ourselves as to antecedents. They're are antecedents to VII teaching, and there not all found amongst the "new theologians". Also strategically speaking, if the Pope is the one to make things better, it stands to reason to adopt a mode that fits his mode of thinking, without compromising on the essentials of the message. Who here actually evangelizes and has worked on adopting messages to the listener? There's much preaching to the choir and listening to ourselves speaking. I had a friend of my wife over last night for dinner. She is away from the Church, living with her boyfriend, and probably doing a few others sin. Guess what, we didn't discuss EENS, but she left knowing she is not in a good position.

Tact is important. The point is that you want them to convert. But there are times when lines must be drawn. And for the sake of charity, the truth must be blunt. For example, when my grandfather was dying, my mother and I went to see him. It was actually the first time we met. I prayed constantly for him, knowing that his last confession was probably 80 years ago. After a few days, I had to have a talk with him. I told him that he was dying, and that "God in Heaven loves him so much, and wants them to be together happy forever in Heaven. That Christ is just waiting for him to make things right.. At the same time, Hell is a real place, and if you are not right with God, you will go there. I love you and don't want you to suffer, will you see a priest?" Miraculously, he agreed, had a good confession, was enrolled in the brown scapular and got last rights including an Apostolic blessing that means no purgatory time. It was a miraculous testament to the Blessed Mother who loved this lost sheep so much and took care of everything, including a good priest, all he had to do was say yes.
Reply
Actually, the first person to refer to the Church after Vatican II as "conciliar church" was a prelate from Rome who corresponded with Abp. Lefebvre.
Reply
(09-13-2012, 02:08 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Actually, the first person to refer to the Church after Vatican II as "conciliar church" was a prelate from Rome who corresponded with Abp. Lefebvre.

Benelli.
Reply
(09-13-2012, 03:18 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: Sorry, I know I'm posting a lot in this thread, but so much bothers me. What's on my mind right now is that we have a Catholic priest -- KingOfSpades -- who (if I understand things correctly, and I beg pardon if I don't) has recently started offering the traditional Mass. He didn't have to do this, but he did. He is reaching out, trying to understand where trads are coming from, he wants to do the right things, he wants to shepherd trads in his parish, etc. He comes to this website -- and how is he treated? What is he learning about "the trad world"?

It makes me so sad...

I can imagine some of the thinking. "Well, so what? He should be offering the TLM anyway."  Of course he should have been trained in the TLM in seminary (preferably ONLY the TLM) and been offering it all along. But that's not how things have been working for the past half a century. And in spite of that, he is going out of his way to learn how to do it and to offer it to his parishioners.

"Well, so what? He's offering the TLM but isn't a 'real trad.' You can tell by other things he posts." Well, he's respectful of Popes that, at the very least (in my case anyway) find very weak, or worse, find heretical, or further along, believe to not be Popes at all (in the case of the sedevacantists who post here). But Catholics are supposed to be respectful of Popes, even those they find to be bad ones. St. Catherine of Siena's letters admonishing the Pope didn't address him with disrespectful nicknames (e.g, "Bennie")

But let's just say this priest were to have gotten things wrong (which I am not intimating; I'm just putting it out there as a hypothetical premise):  the way to deal with it is through charity, prudence, logic, and patient teaching, not the disrespectful stuff that's been going on at this forum. Here we have a PRIEST who cares enough about his vocation and about the souls of his parishioners to learn about the "trad movement" and to offer the traditional Sacramental rites (at least the TLM)! This is a great and beautiful thing, and we're shitting all over it. I am so disheartened I want to cry. Not just for this priest, but for the people in his parish who want the TLM and who MIGHT end up with a priest who becomes so wary of "trad-dom" because of the behavior of too many trads that he says "t'heck with it; this sort of animosity and arrogance haven't been a danger with the N.O. communities I've dealt with so far, I am getting as far away from "traditionalists" as I can and will do all in my power to warn my parishioners away from them, too!" And it'd be understandable. Not right, but understandable. I find myself often inviting people to check out the FE main site -- and warning them away from the forum because of the foulness of some of the posts here. Yeah, I warn people away from my own forum.

Really, I don't know what to do about this sort of thing aside from prayer and throwing in posts here and there. I have no idea what good my prayers for this cause are doing, but it seems that posting has no effect, that there are some people who are so angry and bitter that they would even bite a hand that is trying to feed them. There seems to be a lot of chest-thumping, a pride in being contrary for the sake of it, lots of throwing around of outlandish, hurtful language "just 'cause" or just to "prove" that the writer isn't afraid of the PC police (or is really -- and most likely righteously -- angry about the PC police) or just to show that the poster is a "real man" -- isn't like one of those spineless, touchy-feely products of the overly-feminized "newchurch." (Oorah! The angrier and nastier the better, right!? And let's talk nonsense about women while we're at it!) It's childish. 

I've said it before and I will say it again now and, undoubtedly, a hundred more times in the future:  prudence is thrown to the wind around here. It hurts the cause of Tradition -- and, worse, it wounds Our Lord Himself. There's pride in some folks for the amount of anger they exhibit. Pride and anger, two of the seven deadlies, with one being used to support the other. If Dante had it right, there will be a lot of Fishies choking on thick, heavy smoke while carrying huge boulders on their backs in Purgatory.  Or if they die without grace, broken on a wheel and dismembered.

Father, if you're still around, I want to assure you of something:  as I said in another thread, the less angry, less bitter, more "sane," if you will, trads tend not to post as much as those have problems with wrath and pride. There are gazillions (I counted!) of trads out there who are warm, joyous, bright people who sincerely love Jesus Christ and His Church and who want to see all of the goals of "the trad movement" realized. Many even have a sense of humor! ha Seriously, I pray that no matter what you see on internet forums, you continue to offer the traditional Mass -- and ALL of the traditional Sacramental rites. They are so beautiful, so much more reverent and efficacious in inspiring piety and awe, much more complete in terms of Scripture and Church teaching than the newer rites. Your parishioners deserve them, and with a priest who knows JOY and the PEACE OF CHRIST offering them, a priest who doesn't water down the Church's teachings in his sermons, they can't lose. I, for one, thank you for helping with the Restoration. Bravo to you! :)

Thanks for this post. I could not reply before, a parish priest is sometimes busy.  :)

Where to start.

Well, I must admit that I have waited 5 years since SP to start celebrating the TLM, in fact knowing that it's a Mass I could do (I studied for a doctorate in patristics, I love Latin and so some other priests tried to convince me before) but... the reason not to start was always the way some really fanatic adherers of the TLM behaved. I always said: I don't want to be part of a sect.

What did convince me to start with it: a friend  who discovered it himself, never attended it, and begged me 'please, celebrate that Mass, I will be your server'. And so we started, just the two of us, with the Missal and the instruction video's of the FSSP. He is the perfect acolyth, without ever done it before, knowing the prayers at the foot of the altar by heart from the very first time, and it was for me as if I re-discovered my vocation. Simply wow.

Today it's exactly 4 months since I celebrated my very first TLM with this server. I have celebrated about 10 Masses before I told others about it, and to my big surprise in no time there was a stable group of about 20-25 people from my own parish and the surroundings of my town, who all wanted this to continue, and now we have every week a public EF Mass at thursday, but I must admit that most weeks I celebrate at least 3 EF Masses, also privately when I don't have a Mass on the parish schedule, or with the friend who introduced me for TLM.

Those who attend the EF Mass all say what you also wrote: this Mass is "so beautiful, so much more reverent and efficacious in inspiring piety and awe, much more complete in terms of Scripture and Church teaching than the newer rites. "

Meanwhile I offer all Sacraments and rites possible in the EF, I think we need to do that, like Pope Benedict wants us to do. I have made a lot of effort to learn them, understand them, and made small booklets in Latin/Dutch in order to lower the treshold for the parishioners, and offer them on my own website for all who want to. In our parish church we will have before Advent even a special EF Mass chapel, the parish board gives all cooperation.

Let me be clear about it: nobody is going to stop me. O yes, there is opposition. I get nasty letters and an older fellow-priest doesn't want to speak with me anymore. Let that be so. My bishop is positve about EF Mass in general, in our diocesan seminary more than 50% of the seminarians love the EF and it's offered in the seminary Chapel. And it is my right to do so, and for me meanwhile even my duty to do so. I speak frankly with everyone about my recent 'discovery' and since my heart is full of it, I let it show. Result: at least 5 fellow priests (all younger priests who never celebrated EF Mass before) want to learn it now, and to my great joy, also the young priest coming in my team! So I hope to be with 2 priests able to celebrate EF Mass in our parish soon. :)

VoxClamantis, don't worry too much about me here on FE Forum. Of course I see a lot of nastyness and disrespect. But as a parish priest, believe me, I am used to more than this. We live in an era where a priest is less than nothing in the eyes of people and the way people are sometimes calling names here, is nothing compared to the rudeness the people in my town use for 'human' communication. Ha! Skin of an elephant!

However, that is true for me. I really don't care. BUT you are so right about the bad example some members here give to others who don't have my type of skin. I think the behaviour of some here can really scare people off from traditional catholicism generally. And that is the reason why I can fully understand your concern. There is a lot of interesting content here, but also a lot of hate and angryness. I understand the frustration from others, of course. But it doesn't justify losing some prudent self-control.

For the rest I understand the way this forum is moderated. It's very open to all kind of opinions, also views I can personally not call catholic anymore. Where traditional catholicism becomes rigid traditionalism, and people start calling names to a Pope, the border is crossed imho. In this and other topics I make clear in every reply that I cannot live with that. People can call me whatever they want, even when I am a priest, but keep your keyboard-fingers from the Pope!!!

Those who join the Pope-bashing team of more or less sedevacantists or even denying the real problems of the SSPX with 'Rome' should realize themselves, that every word you write on this forum makes you responsable for good or evil for others. It is a grave sin to bring others in the position that they are having doubts about their loyalty to the Pope. And maybe something to consider for you, VoxClamantis, letting people spread that seed of schism and disrespect here, is maybe something that shouldn't be tolerated for the sake of the souls here. Not every FishEater will probably have the elephant-skin like I have, or the stability in his soul to keep balance in the war against so called modernism, in the way some here want to fight.
Reply
Father, keep offering the EF and spread it to the four winds. We need more priests like you. You have my prayers!!!
Reply
(09-13-2012, 06:55 PM)kingofspades Wrote:
(09-13-2012, 03:18 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: Sorry, I know I'm posting a lot in this thread, but so much bothers me. What's on my mind right now is that we have a Catholic priest -- KingOfSpades -- who (if I understand things correctly, and I beg pardon if I don't) has recently started offering the traditional Mass. He didn't have to do this, but he did. He is reaching out, trying to understand where trads are coming from, he wants to do the right things, he wants to shepherd trads in his parish, etc. He comes to this website -- and how is he treated? What is he learning about "the trad world"?

It makes me so sad...

I can imagine some of the thinking. "Well, so what? He should be offering the TLM anyway."  Of course he should have been trained in the TLM in seminary (preferably ONLY the TLM) and been offering it all along. But that's not how things have been working for the past half a century. And in spite of that, he is going out of his way to learn how to do it and to offer it to his parishioners.

"Well, so what? He's offering the TLM but isn't a 'real trad.' You can tell by other things he posts." Well, he's respectful of Popes that, at the very least (in my case anyway) find very weak, or worse, find heretical, or further along, believe to not be Popes at all (in the case of the sedevacantists who post here). But Catholics are supposed to be respectful of Popes, even those they find to be bad ones. St. Catherine of Siena's letters admonishing the Pope didn't address him with disrespectful nicknames (e.g, "Bennie")

But let's just say this priest were to have gotten things wrong (which I am not intimating; I'm just putting it out there as a hypothetical premise):  the way to deal with it is through charity, prudence, logic, and patient teaching, not the disrespectful stuff that's been going on at this forum. Here we have a PRIEST who cares enough about his vocation and about the souls of his parishioners to learn about the "trad movement" and to offer the traditional Sacramental rites (at least the TLM)! This is a great and beautiful thing, and we're shitting all over it. I am so disheartened I want to cry. Not just for this priest, but for the people in his parish who want the TLM and who MIGHT end up with a priest who becomes so wary of "trad-dom" because of the behavior of too many trads that he says "t'heck with it; this sort of animosity and arrogance haven't been a danger with the N.O. communities I've dealt with so far, I am getting as far away from "traditionalists" as I can and will do all in my power to warn my parishioners away from them, too!" And it'd be understandable. Not right, but understandable. I find myself often inviting people to check out the FE main site -- and warning them away from the forum because of the foulness of some of the posts here. Yeah, I warn people away from my own forum.

Really, I don't know what to do about this sort of thing aside from prayer and throwing in posts here and there. I have no idea what good my prayers for this cause are doing, but it seems that posting has no effect, that there are some people who are so angry and bitter that they would even bite a hand that is trying to feed them. There seems to be a lot of chest-thumping, a pride in being contrary for the sake of it, lots of throwing around of outlandish, hurtful language "just 'cause" or just to "prove" that the writer isn't afraid of the PC police (or is really -- and most likely righteously -- angry about the PC police) or just to show that the poster is a "real man" -- isn't like one of those spineless, touchy-feely products of the overly-feminized "newchurch." (Oorah! The angrier and nastier the better, right!? And let's talk nonsense about women while we're at it!) It's childish. 

I've said it before and I will say it again now and, undoubtedly, a hundred more times in the future:  prudence is thrown to the wind around here. It hurts the cause of Tradition -- and, worse, it wounds Our Lord Himself. There's pride in some folks for the amount of anger they exhibit. Pride and anger, two of the seven deadlies, with one being used to support the other. If Dante had it right, there will be a lot of Fishies choking on thick, heavy smoke while carrying huge boulders on their backs in Purgatory.  Or if they die without grace, broken on a wheel and dismembered.

Father, if you're still around, I want to assure you of something:  as I said in another thread, the less angry, less bitter, more "sane," if you will, trads tend not to post as much as those have problems with wrath and pride. There are gazillions (I counted!) of trads out there who are warm, joyous, bright people who sincerely love Jesus Christ and His Church and who want to see all of the goals of "the trad movement" realized. Many even have a sense of humor! ha Seriously, I pray that no matter what you see on internet forums, you continue to offer the traditional Mass -- and ALL of the traditional Sacramental rites. They are so beautiful, so much more reverent and efficacious in inspiring piety and awe, much more complete in terms of Scripture and Church teaching than the newer rites. Your parishioners deserve them, and with a priest who knows JOY and the PEACE OF CHRIST offering them, a priest who doesn't water down the Church's teachings in his sermons, they can't lose. I, for one, thank you for helping with the Restoration. Bravo to you! :)

Thanks for this post. I could not reply before, a parish priest is sometimes busy.  :)

Where to start.

Well, I must admit that I have waited 5 years since SP to start celebrating the TLM, in fact knowing that it's a Mass I could do (I studied for a doctorate in patristics, I love Latin and so some other priests tried to convince me before) but... the reason not to start was always the way some really fanatic adherers of the TLM behaved. I always said: I don't want to be part of a sect.

What did convince me to start with it: a friend  who discovered it himself, never attended it, and begged me 'please, celebrate that Mass, I will be your server'. And so we started, just the two of us, with the Missal and the instruction video's of the FSSP. He is the perfect acolyth, without ever done it before, knowing the prayers at the foot of the altar by heart from the very first time, and it was for me as if I re-discovered my vocation. Simply wow.

Today it's exactly 4 months since I celebrated my very first TLM with this server. I have celebrated about 10 Masses before I told others about it, and to my big surprise in no time there was a stable group of about 20-25 people from my own parish and the surroundings of my town, who all wanted this to continue, and now we have every week a public EF Mass at thursday, but I must admit that most weeks I celebrate at least 3 EF Masses, also privately when I don't have a Mass on the parish schedule, or with the friend who introduced me for TLM.

Those who attend the EF Mass all say what you also wrote: this Mass is "so beautiful, so much more reverent and efficacious in inspiring piety and awe, much more complete in terms of Scripture and Church teaching than the newer rites. "

Meanwhile I offer all Sacraments and rites possible in the EF, I think we need to do that, like Pope Benedict wants us to do. I have made a lot of effort to learn them, understand them, and made small booklets in Latin/Dutch in order to lower the treshold for the parishioners, and offer them on my own website for all who want to. In our parish church we will have before Advent even a special EF Mass chapel, the parish board gives all cooperation.

Let me be clear about it: nobody is going to stop me. O yes, there is opposition. I get nasty letters and an older fellow-priest doesn't want to speak with me anymore. Let that be so. My bishop is positve about EF Mass in general, in our diocesan seminary more than 50% of the seminarians love the EF and it's offered in the seminary Chapel. And it is my right to do so, and for me meanwhile even my duty to do so. I speak frankly with everyone about my recent 'discovery' and since my heart is full of it, I let it show. Result: at least 5 fellow priests (all younger priests who never celebrated EF Mass before) want to learn it now, and to my great joy, also the young priest coming in my team! So I hope to be with 2 priests able to celebrate EF Mass in our parish soon. :)

VoxClamantis, don't worry too much about me here on FE Forum. Of course I see a lot of nastyness and disrespect. But as a parish priest, believe me, I am used to more than this. We live in an era where a priest is less than nothing in the eyes of people and the way people are sometimes calling names here, is nothing compared to the rudeness the people in my town use for 'human' communication. Ha! Skin of an elephant!

However, that is true for me. I really don't care. BUT you are so right about the bad example some members here give to others who don't have my type of skin. I think the behaviour of some here can really scare people off from traditional catholicism generally. And that is the reason why I can fully understand your concern. There is a lot of interesting content here, but also a lot of hate and angryness. I understand the frustration from others, of course. But it doesn't justify losing some prudent self-control.

For the rest I understand the way this forum is moderated. It's very open to all kind of opinions, also views I can personally not call catholic anymore. Where traditional catholicism becomes rigid traditionalism, and people start calling names to a Pope, the border is crossed imho. In this and other topics I make clear in every reply that I cannot live with that. People can call me whatever they want, even when I am a priest, but keep your keyboard-fingers from the Pope!!!

Those who join the Pope-bashing team of more or less sedevacantists or even denying the real problems of the SSPX with 'Rome' should realize themselves, that every word you write on this forum makes you responsable for good or evil for others. It is a grave sin to bring others in the position that they are having doubts about their loyalty to the Pope. And maybe something to consider for you, VoxClamantis, letting people spread that seed of schism and disrespect here, is maybe something that shouldn't be tolerated for the sake of the souls here. Not every FishEater will probably have the elephant-skin like I have, or the stability in his soul to keep balance in the war against so called modernism, in the way some here want to fight.
Please clarify this quote , Father?
"Even when we strongly disagree with teachings or decisions, even those ex cathedra, it's not a sin as such."
Reply
(09-13-2012, 07:24 PM)JMartyr Wrote: Please clarify this quote , Father?
"Even when we strongly disagree with teachings or decisions, even those ex cathedra, it's not a sin as such."

I'd still like to see a clarification on that point as well, JMartyr... and in case user "kingofspades" has not seen it already, I should especially like to learn in such a clarification how to reconcile the aforementioned quote with the content in the following post: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg33796688

(and in case anyone finds the material I cited earlier in English as doubtful due to the web-source of the translation, I can provide the original Latin from my copy of the 1951 Imprimi Potest'd, Imprimatur'd book)
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