Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
And for an even simpler version:

Quote: Those Outside the Communion of Saints
10 Q. Who are they who do not belong to the Communion of Saints?

A. Those who are damned do not belong to the Communion of Saints in the other life; and in this life those who belong neither to the body nor to the soul of the Church, that is, those who are in mortal sin, and who are outside the true Church.

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?

A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?

A. Infidels are those who have not been baptized and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

13 Q. Who are the Jews?
A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.
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14 Q. Who are heretics?

A. Heretics are those of the baptized who obstinately refuse to believe some truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.

15 Q. Who are apostates?

A. Apostates are those who abjure, or by some external act, deny the Catholic faith which they previously professed.

16 Q. Who are schismatics?
A. Schismatics are those Christians who, while not explicitly denying any dogma, yet voluntarily separate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ, that is, from their lawful pastors.

17 Q. Who are the excommunicated?
A. The excommunicated are those who, because of grievous transgressions, are struck with excommunication by the Pope or their Bishop, and consequently are cut off as unworthy from the body of the Church, which, however, hopes for and desires their conversion......

12 Q. What do we intend when we ask that God may be known, loved, honored and served by the whole world?

A. We intend to beg that infidels may come to the knowledge of the Lord God, that heretics may recognize their errors, that schismatics may return to the unity of the Church, that sinners may repent, and that the just may persevere in well-doing.
Catechism of St Pius X

Oh dear no mention of profound communion here, lets try another catechism

Quote: Q. 1170. Name the different classes of unbelievers and tell what they are.
A. The different classes of unbelievers are:
(1) Atheists, who deny there is a God;

(2) Deists, who admit there is a God, but deny that He revealed a religion;

(3) Agnostics, who will neither admit nor deny the existence of God;

(4) Infidels, who have never been baptized, and who, through want of faith, refuse to be baptized;

(5) Heretics, who have been baptized Christians, but do not believe all the articles of faith;

(6) Schismatics, who have been baptized and believe all the articles of faith, but do not submit to the authority of the Pope;

(7) Apostates, who have rejected the true religion, in which they formerly believed, to join a false religion;

(8) Rationalists and Materialists, who believe only in material things.

Q. 1171. Will the denial of only one article of faith make a person a heretic?

A. The denial of only one article of faith will make a person a heretic and guilty of mortal sin, because the Holy Scripture says: "Whosoever shall keep the whole law but offend in one point is become guilty of all."
The baltimore catechism

Nope, no mention of it here, lets try another one

Quote: Q. 149. What other reason have you for it?

A. Because, as in a natural body, that part which has not a due connection to the heart or
root, presently dies for want of continuity; so in the church (the mystical body of Christ)
that man who has not a due subordination and connection to the head and common
councils thereof, (that is, the Pope and general councils from whence under Christ we
have our spiritual life and motion, as we are Christians,) must needs be dead, nor indeed
can he be accounted a member of that mystical body.

Q. 150. Who, I beseech you, are those who are not to be accounted members of the
Church?

A. All such as are not in the unity of the church, by a most firm belief of her doctrine, and
due obedience to her pastors; as Jews, Turks, Heretics, &c.

Q. 151. Why may not Heretics and Schismatics justly claim to be in the Unity of the
Church and Members of Christ's body?

A. Because Catholics can show to each sect of Heretics and Schismatics the time they
began; the date of their separation from the Church: the name of the person or persons of
their sect who first separated themselves, and the cause of their condemnation; whilst the
Catholic Church always was from the beginning.

Q. 152. What if a Protestant should tell you, that the difference between them and
us, are not differences in fundamentals, or in faith, but in opinion only, and
therefore do not exclude them out of unity of the Catholic Church?

A. I should answer, they contradict themselves; for they accuse us of robbing God of his
honour, in holding priestly absolutions from sins; in adoring Christ's body and blood, as
really present in the eucharist, and holding the Pope's supremacy in things belonging to
the spiritual government of the Church, also the infallibility of the Church and general
councils, in delivering and defining points of faith, which are no matters of indifference,
but high fundamentals.

Q. 153. How do you prove all obstinate Innovators to be Heretics?

A. Because they wilfully stand out against the definitive sentence of the Church of God,
and submit not to any tribunal appointed by Christ to decide religious controversies; but
follow their own interpretation of the dead letter of the scriptures....

Q. 168. What think you then of such as accuse the church of errors in faith and idolatry?

A. Truly I think them to be Heretics or Infidels, for our Lord saith, He that will not hear
the church let him be unto thee as a heathen and a publican, St. Matt. xviii. 17.

Q. 169. Is not the church at least too severe in its censures and excommunications
against sectaries?

A. No, she is very reasonable and charitable in them for vicious, passionate, and selfinterested
men some times are brought to reason for fear of punishment and are forced to
their own good, when no authority ordained by Christ is able to persuade them to it.....

Q. 384. How do men sin against this commandment?

A. By worshipping idols and false gods, by erring or doubting in faith, by superstition
and witchcraft.
Q. 385. How else?

A. By communicating with infidels or heretics, by believing dreams, &c.

Q. 386. How do you prove it a great sin to go to church with heretics?

A. Because by so doing we outwardly deny our faith, and profess their false faith.

Q. 387. What scripture have you against it?

A. Out of Luke xvii. 23, 24, where Christ forbids it, saying, "And they shall say unto you,
Lo! here is Christ, Lo, there Christ; go ye not, neither do you follow them."

Q. 388. What other proof have you?

A. Out of Tit. iii. 10, 11. "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition,
avoid, knowing that he that is such an one is subverted and sinneth."....

Q. 593. For what end did Christ ordain the Sacraments?

A. To be external and visible marks and professions of his holy faith, by which the
faithful might be known from Infidels and Heretics; and also to be effectual means of our
salvation, and certain remedies against sin....

Q. 918. What is it to impugn the known truth?

A. To argue obstinately against known points of faith, or to prevent the way of our Lord
by forging lies and slander, as Heretics do, when they teach the ignorant people, that
Catholics worship images as God, and give Angels and Saints the honour which is due to
God; or that the Pope for money gives us pardon to commit what sins we please; that all
which, greater falsehoods cannot be invented
Douay catechism of 1649

Oh dear that one definitely doesn't like heretics lets try another one...

Quote: ARTICLE IX : "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH; THE COMMUNION OF
SAINTS"

The Importance Of This Article

With what great diligence pastors ought to explain to the faithful the truth of this ninth Article will be easily
seen, if we attend chiefly to two considerations.

First, as St. Augustine observes, the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than of Christ,
foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation.
For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like the ape that would fain pass for a man,
would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone
is the Catholic Church.

The second consideration is that he whose mind is strongly impressed with the truth taught in this Article, will
easily escape the awful danger of heresy. For a person is not to be called a heretic as soon as he shall have
offended in matters of faith; but he is a heretic who, having disregarded the authority of the Church, maintains
impious opinions with pertinacity. Since, therefore, it is impossible that anyone be infected with the contagion
of heresy, so long as he holds what this Article proposes to be believed, let pastors use every diligence that the
faithful, having known this mystery and guarded against the wiles of Satan, may persevere in the true faith.
This Article hinges upon the preceding one; for, it having been already shown that the Holy Ghost is the source
and giver of all holiness, we here profess our belief that the Church has been endowed by Him with sanctity....

Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics,
and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew
the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded
from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army
from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of
the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally,
excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from
the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.
But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the
Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of
her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power....

Enemies And Those Outside The Church

The Lord has also commanded us, to pray for those that persecute and calumniate us. The practice of praying
for those who are not within the pale of the Church, is, as we know on the authority of St. Augustine, of
Apostolic origin. We pray that the faith may be made known to infidels; that idolaters may be rescued from the
error of their impiety; that the Jews, emerging from the darkness with which they are encompassed, may arrive
at the light of truth; that heretics, returning to soundness of mind, may be instructed in the Catholic faith; and
that schismatics may be united in the bond of true charity and may return to the communion of their holy
mother, the Church, from which they have separated.

Many examples prove that prayers for such as these are very efficacious when offered from the heart. Instances
occur every day in which God rescues individuals of every condition of life from the powers of darkness, and
transfers them into the kingdom of His Beloved Son, from vessels of wrath making them vessels of mercy. That
the prayers of the pious have very great influence in bringing about this result no one can reasonably doubt....
Catchism of trent

In short none of the catechisms mention this profound communion or joy we should feeling for heretics, how odd  ??? Well it would be odd, if it was catholic teaching...
Reply
(10-23-2012, 04:04 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: TrentCath,
Your quote vandalism is immaterial, since they are not talking about what the Pope is. Find somewhere where they say that we shouldn't or can't take joy in good of non-Catholics Christians when imbued with respect and right intention. Thank you.

You see script this what we call willful blindness you whinge that people haven't proved their assertions, then you whinge when they do. Newsflash, quoting what the church teaches isn't quote vandalism, its backing up one assertions, I know its difficult for you and all not having anything to back up your claims except your own opinion, but you don't need to hate on me  :LOL:
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What Pope Pius XII wrote on the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church was wonderful.  But it does not allow for a "profound or imperfect communion" between the Church and the sects.  There is no visible bond (unity of faith and of government), nor are there "invisible, intangible bonds" (MCC, 14), the latter of which the Church teaches exists between the Churches (cf. CDF, documents from 1992, 2000 and 2007).  Do you see the contradiction here?

What did the thread on the positive and negative notes of the Church show?
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Seriously though, this is what always happens in these discussions.

You post your opinion over and over again, someone else posts pre conciliar papal teaching, you disparage it and then complain about them. If i post them in full, people complain they are too long, if I post them in chunks they complain its out of context or quote vandalism, if I don't post them at all they claim that its not proven. In short you are like the jews in the time of christ, st john the baptist came and didn't eat or drink and they complained, jesus came and ate and drank and they complained.

That's just childish, maybe you should face facts and except that actually there is a prima facie case that the Church teaches something different to what the modern popes teach?
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(10-23-2012, 04:11 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: What Pope Pius XII wrote on the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church was wonderful.  But it does not allow for a "profound or imperfect communion" between the Church and the sects.  There is no visible bond (unity of faith and of government), nor are there "invisible, intangible bonds" (MCC, 14), the latter of which the Church teaches exists between the Churches (cf. CDF, documents from 1992, 2000 and 2007).  Do you see the contradiction here?

Na its just quote vandalism  :P
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(10-23-2012, 04:10 PM)TrentCath Wrote: You see script this what we call willful blindness you whinge that people haven't proved their assertions, then you whinge when they do. Newsflash, quoting what the church teaches isn't quote vandalism, its backing up one assertions, I know its difficult for you and all not having anything to back up your claims except your own opinion, but you don't need to hate on me  :LOL:

No, it is vandalism. You just cut and paste. No first hand research, no knowledge. No real understanding of argumentation, since a lack does not prove a contradiction. No Immaculate Conception before St Ephraim. Figure that one out. I will shake the dust off my feet.

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(10-23-2012, 04:15 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 04:10 PM)TrentCath Wrote: You see script this what we call willful blindness you whinge that people haven't proved their assertions, then you whinge when they do. Newsflash, quoting what the church teaches isn't quote vandalism, its backing up one assertions, I know its difficult for you and all not having anything to back up your claims except your own opinion, but you don't need to hate on me  :LOL:

No, it is vandalism. You just cut and paste. No first hand research, no knowledge. No real understanding of argumentation, since a lack does not imply a contradiction. No Immaculate Conception before St Ephraim. Figure that one out. I will shake the dust off my feet.

Whereas you engaging in endless sophisms are such a sophisticated debater? Oh, pardon me  :eyeroll:

Come back to me when you manage to find one of the pre conciliar popes talking about this profound communion or alternatively one of the modern popes praying for heretics to convert.

Frankly you seem disconnected from reality, if all the popes prior to vatican 2 are saying shun heretics, pray for them, they are outside the church except the ones in invincible ignorance, the rest are damned, they are mutinous etc... and pope benedict xvi is saying oh they are great, lets be happy for them, we are working together, are you going to  sit there and tell me there is no contradiction?
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(10-23-2012, 04:11 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: What Pope Pius XII wrote on the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church was wonderful.  But it does not allow for a "profound or imperfect communion" between the Church and the sects.  There is no visible bond (unity of faith and of government), nor are there "invisible, intangible bonds" (MCC, 14), the latter of which the Church teaches exists between the Churches (cf. CDF, documents from 1992, 2000 and 2007).  Do you see the contradiction here?

Visible bond: Trinity, Jesus as Savior, Resurrection, Sacrament of Baptism and Marriage (at least; Orthodox all seven), Bible (Orthodox all the same books), many of the same aspects in our rites, etc. etc. They are not definitely the same as Buddhists.

Invisible bond: Baptism!?!?!? Baptism is never wiped out! That's profound enough if you believe in God.
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(10-23-2012, 09:40 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 08:06 AM)Whitey Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 07:30 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 07:10 AM)Whitey Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 06:41 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: ...Further, yes, one should always assume the Pope's intentions are good. If there is real evidence to show otherwise, then that's another story, but the assumption should be that his intentions are good. That's how you're supposed to deal with everyone, not just His Holiness. But for some folks here, the assumption is just the opposite, and perfectly kosher text is twisted and jumped on. That's what's scandalous.

I agree. It's an acquired bad habit. Every homily or address the pope makes is subject to ridicule by some trads. And most always followed by back pats from the same. It's become so common here, that it fouls most every discussion.

If a person continously makes unorthodox statements, was an unorthodox theologian and openly promotes and allows unorthodoxy it would seem to me, to be unreasonable not to be very wary of that persons words and actions and subject them to intense scrutiny for ones own protection, if not that of others.

I agree we have a duty as Roman Catholics to defend the Faith, but the way some discredit the pope is rather excessive.

[b[I don't see anyone discrediting the pope[/b]  :shrug:

I guess ultimately the problem is that there are two groups here, or rather at last two groups:

i) Group A sees the pope as basically orthodox but he sometimes makes statements that are ambigous
ii)Group B sees the pope as basically unorthodox and thus all of what he says is likely suspect

See, now my post is taken out of context again. That's why I don't bother in these discussions other than a post or two.

Carry on though.
Reply
(10-23-2012, 04:21 PM)Whitey Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 09:40 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 08:06 AM)Whitey Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 07:30 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 07:10 AM)Whitey Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 06:41 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: ...Further, yes, one should always assume the Pope's intentions are good. If there is real evidence to show otherwise, then that's another story, but the assumption should be that his intentions are good. That's how you're supposed to deal with everyone, not just His Holiness. But for some folks here, the assumption is just the opposite, and perfectly kosher text is twisted and jumped on. That's what's scandalous.

I agree. It's an acquired bad habit. Every homily or address the pope makes is subject to ridicule by some trads. And most always followed by back pats from the same. It's become so common here, that it fouls most every discussion.

If a person continously makes unorthodox statements, was an unorthodox theologian and openly promotes and allows unorthodoxy it would seem to me, to be unreasonable not to be very wary of that persons words and actions and subject them to intense scrutiny for ones own protection, if not that of others.

I agree we have a duty as Roman Catholics to defend the Faith, but the way some discredit the pope is rather excessive.

[b[I don't see anyone discrediting the pope[/b]  :shrug:

I guess ultimately the problem is that there are two groups here, or rather at last two groups:

i) Group A sees the pope as basically orthodox but he sometimes makes statements that are ambigous
ii)Group B sees the pope as basically unorthodox and thus all of what he says is likely suspect

See, now my post is taken out of context again. That's why I don't bother in these discussions other than a post or two.

Carry on though.

Sorry, who's taking what out of context?
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